What would residential solar look like without net metering?

[organic farmer]

The current going rate for the EXIDE deep cycle batteries (27MDCST) that you've stated that you use is over $100 each, and you have 24 of them. What inverter do you have that costs more than $2400? Or were you able to pick up your batteries for significantly cheaper?

I got the batteries for $90 each.

My inverter came prewired inside a 'Four Star' E-panel from wholesalesolar, https://www.wholesalesolar.com/

It is a 'Magnum Energy' Inverter, [120/240volt, 4400watt, pure sinewave inverter]

I seem to recall that it cost me around $4500

[organic farmer]

Doesn't your system need to be a business expense for this?

Of course.

I farm.

I can barely swing a dead cat without hitting a tax write-off.

[ButchDeal]

I got the batteries for $90 each.

My inverter came prewired inside a 'Four Star' E-panel from wholesalesolar, https://www.wholesalesolar.com/

It is a 'Magnum Energy' Inverter, [120/240volt, 4400watt, pure sinewave inverter]

I seem to recall that it cost me around $4500

So a $2,195 inverter. https://www.wholesalesolar.com/29548...48pae-inverter

and $2,300 in integrated electrical equipment

[foo1bar]

I get every penny I spent back in depreciation [tax write-offs], and power for the next 20-years 'free'.

I can give you another $50k in tax write-offs, just send me $50k and I'll default on the loan from you, giving you $50k in tax write-offs.
And I'm dead-serious - I'll be HAPPY to give you $50k in tax write-offs that way.
Your accountant will even tell you that giving me a $50k loan that I default on will give you $50k of tax write-offs.
And if you want even MORE tax write-offs, I can help you achieve that.

This is a long-winded way of showing you that you are NOT getting power for the next 20 years for free.

The contract that I downloaded from their site, says their engineer had to do the inspection

Search for "emera solar interconnect" - you can read the requirements straight from them for a <10kW system.
$50 for the application fee.
And "There will no be charge for Company personnel to witness the commissioning testing of Level 1 inverter based Generating Facilities, provided that the testing is completed in one visit. "
(emphasis mine)

A $50 fee seems reasonable to me - cheap even.

They were the folks who told me [and huge crowds] that only specific licensed techs could work on solar systems.

Wasn't there - so don't know what was said - but my guess is they weren't talking about DIY owner-builders and small residential homeowner installations.
If there's a law/statute that prevents a DIY solar installation I didn't find it - which makes me assume that it doesn't actually exist.
It wouldn't be the first time that people think there's a legal reason you can't do a DIY solar install, but there isn't actually such a legal restriction.

[foo1bar]

They were the folks who told me [and huge crowds] that only specific licensed techs could work on solar systems.

Someone forgot to tell this guy who did a DIY solar install in Maine:

http://www.arttec.net/SolarPower/index.htm

[DanS26]

Of course.

I farm.

I can barely swing a dead cat without hitting a tax write-off.

I hope you don't do organic farming like you do tax accounting.

[J.P.M.]

I get every penny I spent back in depreciation [tax write-offs.

Well, you may think so, and you may have pulled off the tax coup of the ages, but if your following the IRS code, what you're getting back (or more accurately, how much you are lowering your tax liability) by depreciating an income producing or other asset is that annual and allowable portion of the depreciated expense times your marginal tax rate. That's usually a long way from "every penny spent".

I'm not an accountant and I don't play one on TV, but I once had income producing assets, and a wife who was, and still is, a CPA - just not my wife any more.

Anyhow, the Reader's Digest version of the way I learned about depreciable assets and how they related to U.S IRS and state tax codes from her goes something like this:

Plain old straight depreciation (not for example, accelerated or double declining balance or some other allowable method) mostly works against what is bottom line taxable income on a $ for $ basis against taxable income, but not as a $ for $ tax credit against taxes owed.

So, If I have, say, $100 in taxable income and I spend $10 on an income producing investment or improvement that's depreciable over it's useful life of, say,10 years, I get to expense (to "write off") $1/yr. ($10 over 10 yrs.) of that $10, leaving me to pay taxes on the remaining $99 of my taxable income. If my marginal tax rate for $100 income is, say, 15%, the allowable reduction in my tax burden for that year due to depreciation is $1.00 * .15 = $0.15, not a $10 or a $1 reduction in my tax burden for that year.

That is also different than what I understand to be a business expense of the type that has the entire amount spent on, say, repairing a barn door damaged by an accident, with that type of expense being entirely deductible in the taxable year the taxable event (the accident) occurred.

So, I, or my company, will reduce the tax burden by the allowable deduction times my marginal income tax bracket(s), federal and probably state, but that's most likely a long way from not paying for it, and it sure isn't a $ of $ credit against taxes owed.

There is a difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. Deductions work against income you owe taxes on. Credits work against taxes you owe.

Depreciation works against income similar to the way deductions work against income with some time schedule for how long to depreciate some asset, and does not (usually) work in a 1:1 ratio against taxes owed the way a tax credit will work.

[J.P.M.]

Living for months at a time underwater. Debates can go on for years.

Every crewman has detailed knowledge in some field. Unless someone watches every movie that is shown, they will become a bookworm.

I have several friends who were long time silent servers. I've learned a lot from most of them. Most of the (retired) Dolphin non-coms I know in the tech field(s) seem to have trained/cross trained/ qualified for multiple MOS's over their careers. The retired submariner officers I know seem more strident in manner than officers of other career paths, but are generally quieter about it - and that's not a knock. They all, officers and enlisted personnel seem to have several common characteristics, one such characteristic being they're mostly voracious readers.

[Sunking]

You two are both retired Dolphins. How were these differences of opinion worked out on the boats ? Just curious.

Perhaps you misunderstood. If there is no permit required for off-grid, then there would be no permit for grid tied. Put another way no AHJ would differentiate between the two. Off grid is far more dangerous than GT to the owners and public.

[SupraLance]

I agree that a small off grid system may have a lower up front cost compared to a grid tie system but in the long run the cost to generate a kWH from an off grid system will be much more expensive then for a grid tie system because of the batteries.

I've ran the numbers, and they don't agree with you for small systems. The POCO charges a $13/month connection fee here plus 12cents/kwh. So even if you use very little electricity, you have a bill of $20/month, or $240/year. I can replace my 230ah 24v battery bank every other year for less than that $480, and it should last 3-5years. Now for larger systems and larger battery banks, the POCO is cheaper. But not vs smaller systems.

Off grid real systems here is a comparison of parts.

both 1.08kw with 4 Astroenergy PV modules, ironridge racking, design etc.

Off grid is with Magnum inerter and requires batteries and really a generator as well just lets just add the batteries for $6,552 and of course will need batteries replaced every (lets be generouse) 8 years so three times in the 25 year life time. for a total of = $8,096

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1890700/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/the-cabin-1.08-kw-4-panel-astronergy-off-grid-solar-system

On Grid uses enphase micros so lets count on replacing one over the 25 year lifetime, and adding the envoy for a total of $3,171

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1894204/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/1.1-kw-grid-tied-solar-system-with-4x-astronergy-270w-panels

The Grid tie will produce considerably more as well, for less than hale the up front cost

$6,552 in batteries for 1.08Kw??? WTH?? The link you posted shows a $770 lead acid bank for that size system. Replaced every 5 years is still just $4000 over 25 years.
And you are completely ignoring the ongoing monthly electric bill with a grid-tied system.

Why does everyone say a grid-tie system will produce more? If you use the power as it's produced, the panels produce the same in either scenario. Granted, if you store the energy and use it later you get less out of the batteries, but aren't there additional costs from the POCO when you do the same with grid-tie, such as selling the power at wholesale rate and buying it back at retail?

[organic farmer]

... If there's a law/statute that prevents a DIY solar installation I didn't find it - which makes me assume that it doesn't actually exist.
It wouldn't be the first time that people think there's a legal reason you can't do a DIY solar install, but there isn't actually such a legal restriction.

I have never heard of such a thing for off-grid systems.

Off-grid systems around here are predominately DIY, because it is so much cheaper.

[organic farmer]

Someone forgot to tell this guy who did a DIY solar install in Maine:

http://www.arttec.net/SolarPower/index.htm

He is also part of the crowd who WANTS to tax every rate-payer to fund solar installs.

[organic farmer]

I have several friends who were long time silent servers. I've learned a lot from most of them. Most of the (retired) Dolphin non-coms I know in the tech field(s) seem to have trained/cross trained/ qualified for multiple MOS's over their careers. The retired submariner officers I know seem more strident in manner than officers of other career paths, but are generally quieter about it - and that's not a knock. They all, officers and enlisted personnel seem to have several common characteristics, one such characteristic being they're mostly voracious readers.

Every time you re-enlist they offer you another MOS/NEC, along with the cash bonus money [Selective Re-enlistment Bonus]. On a second contract it would be normal to hold two MOS's, on a third contract it would be normal to hold three MOS's.

My primary was mainframe computer system analyst, then by luck I picked up electronic surveillance measures. Then micro/miniature repair, then Law Enforcement, and finally Intelligence officer.

[SunEagle]

I've ran the numbers, and they don't agree with you for small systems. The POCO charges a $13/month connection fee here plus 12cents/kwh. So even if you use very little electricity, you have a bill of $20/month, or $240/year. I can replace my 230ah 24v battery bank every other year for less than that $480, and it should last 3-5years. Now for larger systems and larger battery banks, the POCO is cheaper. But not vs smaller systems.


$6,552 in batteries for 1.08Kw??? WTH?? The link you posted shows a $770 lead acid bank for that size system. Replaced every 5 years is still just $4000 over 25 years.
And you are completely ignoring the ongoing monthly electric bill with a grid-tied system.

Why does everyone say a grid-tie system will produce more? If you use the power as it's produced, the panels produce the same in either scenario. Granted, if you store the energy and use it later you get less out of the batteries, but aren't there additional costs from the POCO when you do the same with grid-tie, such as selling the power at wholesale rate and buying it back at retail?

I disagree with your numbers. Once you figure in the cost of the entire solar/battery system, what the batteries can safely deliver each day over their posted life, even with the POCO meter charges it still will be cheaper to be connected to the grid then going off grid. The bigger the solar/battery system the more money you lose.

But choose what you want to believe. It is your money to spend anyway you want.

[J.P.M.]

perhaps you misunderstood. If there is no permit required for off-grid, then there would be no permit for grid tied. Put another way no ahj would differentiate between the two. Off grid is far more dangerous than gt to the owners and public.

rua

j.p.m.