What would residential solar look like without net metering?

[Sunking]

I highly doubt most folks doing DIY off grid solar are getting an electrical inspection.

While that maybe true does not make it legal. Like speeding as long as you do not get caught you get away with it. Not all areas require permits and inspection. Mostly rural areas do not have the funds and manpower. Cities are different. In cities there is enough construction to pay for the system and even make money. In rural areas no one really cares if you burn your house down because you are ignorant of electrical codes. In cities you are a threat to your neighbors and first respondents.

Does an installation with only 48 volt and below even require a permit?

Voltage does not matter. In fact low voltage systems are for more dangerous because of the current involved. High current terminations require skill and special equipment to do properly. Only thing that changes once you go below 50 volts AC or DC is the requirement to use a Grounded System. Otherwise there is no difference from a permit POV.

One last thing the Employment Prevention Agency and Fire Departments can get involved when batteries come into play. The issue with lead acid batteries is acid, and if you have more than 500 pounds. Under EPCRA Sections 311 and 312 you are required to apply for a Permit and Inspections by your local FD once a year. That comes with a lot of strings attached like spill containment system, tracking the batteries from cradle to grave, barriers, warning signs, and disaster cleanup plans. If you have a spill or leak at any point including shipping, you are responsible. The FD will inspect once a year to make sure compliance is in order. Additionally it also tells the FD if your house catches on fire, they will sit back and watch it burn down.

If you think lithium is any better, you are sadly mistaken. You cannot extinguish a lithium battery fire, and lithium batteries are extremely dangerous. So dangerous they cannot be shipped on planes and ships. Lithium batteries have a nasty habit of catching on fire disconnected not doing anything.

[foo1bar]

I live on a farm. Nearly every expense I have is a tax deduction. The IRS mandates that solar systems must depreciate over 7 years. Every penny spent on solar power gets depreciated over a 7 year period. So the longest possible 'pay-back' for off-grid solar is 7 years.

Just because it's depreciated over 7 years does not mean that the "payback" is 7 years or less.
Depreciation over 7 years just means that the cost is spread over 7 years when accounting for the cost of the installation.
It does not mean that the benefit over those 7 years is more than what was spent to get that benefit.

Now it's quite likely that the payback is less than 7 years - a DIY installation (even with the extra cost of batteries) probably is going to be <7 years. If it isn't <7 years, then the person probably isn't going to bother doing it.
But that is a very different thing than depreciation.

[foo1bar]

There is no such thing s a DIY net-metering system in this state. So what is an apples to apples comparison?

"This state" is Maine, right?

I looked at Saco Maine's requirements (just picked them at semi-random - they have their permit stuff indexed by Google)
Their electrical permit lists Solar - cost is $40 - http://www.sacomaine.org/Code%20Enfo...l%20Permit.pdf

And they have a FAQ:

http://www.sacomaine.org/departments/code_enforcement/frequently_asked_questions.php

"Do I need a license to perform electrical or plumbing installations"
"The owner of a single-family owner-occupied dwelling may perform all electrical and plumbing work without a license within his or her own dwelling unit. All appropriate permits must be obtained and all work must be performed in compliance with the applicable codes. All work is required to be inspected by the Code Enforcement Office."

So no reason you can't do DIY net-metering in Maine.
I'd guess there probably are some DIY net-metering installations there.

[Sunking]

Just because it's depreciated over 7 years does not mean that the "payback" is 7 years or less.
Depreciation over 7 years just means that the cost is spread over 7 years when accounting for the cost of the installation.
It does not mean that the benefit over those 7 years is more than what was spent to get that benefit..

In 7 years he will be on his second set of batteries which cost more then the panels, controller and inverter. He is a fool and does not realize it takes a 10 watt battery system to equal a 7 watt GT system. He also does not realize it is impossible to utilize all the power a battery system can produce in a day. It is impossible. Once you consider that it takes more like a 10 watt battery system to equal a 5 watt GT. Not to mention he is a heavy heavy polluter with his battery system.

Of course the other thing which makes him and his accountant a bigger fool is just in battery cost alone his Kwh rate is 50 to 75-cents per Kwh some 4 to 8 times more than that mean ole POCO charges him. A smart accountant could tell him how much many he is throwing away every day. Put it to you this way, if he had invested that money, the interest would pay for his electric bill, and his kids would have a nice wad of money left over after they bury him and the accountant. All he is leaving his kids is liability with a ton of toxic waste to dispose of.

[organic farmer]

You are not the rest of the developed world. From what you've described in the past, sounds to me like you're in an area that's somewhat different than what a lot of us are familiar with. Most of us don't live in your town.

True. I live on the East Coast.

"Back East" so to say.

[organic farmer]

So no reason you can't do DIY net-metering in Maine.
I'd guess there probably are some DIY net-metering installations there.

I know very little about Saco, other than it is pretty urban.

The state requires that all net-metering work is to be performed by a state licensed Solar Tech, it can not be done by an electrician.

The power companies here control anything that is connected to their grid. To net-meter you must have a contract with your power company. They require that you pay their engineer to inspect the equipment.

AGAIN, I got three quotes from installers. Each installer is a dealer. they refuse to touch anything that they did not sell you. They jack up their prices because of this. You can buy perfectly good equipment online that is ready to hook-up, but these idiots will not touch it.

[organic farmer]

In 7 years he will be on his second set of batteries which cost more then the panels, controller and inverter. He is a fool and does not realize it takes a 10 watt battery system to equal a 7 watt GT system. He also does not realize it is impossible to utilize all the power a battery system can produce in a day. It is impossible. Once you consider that it takes more like a 10 watt battery system to equal a 5 watt GT. Not to mention he is a heavy heavy polluter with his battery system.

Of course the other thing which makes him and his accountant a bigger fool is just in battery cost alone his Kwh rate is 50 to 75-cents per Kwh some 4 to 8 times more than that mean ole POCO charges him. A smart accountant could tell him how much many he is throwing away every day. Put it to you this way, if he had invested that money, the interest would pay for his electric bill, and his kids would have a nice wad of money left over after they bury him and the accountant. All he is leaving his kids is liability with a ton of toxic waste to dispose of.

Most solar and wind power systems in my area are off-grid. Only about 1/4 are net-metering.

Meeting with other off-grid system operators, they all agree that your first battery-bank will need to be replaced at the 10-year point. But after that 15 to 20 years should be normal. I fully expect these batteries to last 10 years.

My batteries cost less than the inverter did. I am not sure why you would think that batteries should cost more than the 'panels, controller and inverter'???

My solar power system is NOT an 'investment'. I have investments. This is to bring reliable power [which is not available via the power company] to my farm.

[J.P.M.]

True. I live on the East Coast.

"Back East" so to say.

Yea, I did that and lived in the northeast once as well, but it seems most folks I know/knew back there were aware that the rest of the world didn't necessarily follow in lock step with us.

[foo1bar]

The state requires that all net-metering work is to be performed by a state licensed Solar Tech, it can not be done by an electrician.

This sounds like something told to you by a solar salesman to convince you that it has to be done by them, not someone else.
If there really is a requirement like that it'd be encoded in state law - The few quick searches I did showed no such laws/statutes for Maine.

The power companies here control anything that is connected to their grid. To net-meter you must have a contract with your power company. They require that you pay their engineer to inspect the equipment.

Yes, you need a contract.
Yes, they have a reasonable right to put requirements on things connected to the grid (they are required to keep the grid safe)
No, it's not a big deal.
Maine even has a law in place that the interconnect requirements are streamlined for a <10kW system (which most residential systems are)
Looking at cmpco (one of the Maine POCOs) the interconnect application indicates it only needs the inspection by the "local code official".

My solar power system is NOT an 'investment'. I have investments. This is to bring reliable power [which is not available via the power company] to my farm.

Ok - so it's not an investment.
So maybe it's accurate that your cost per kwh is more than the POCO.
And therefore the payback is not 7 years, it's *never*.

For most people they're looking at it as an investment. My DIY system (grid-tie) will pay for itself in ~4 years.

I think SunKing is putting the cost per kwh for a DIY off-grid system higher than it has to be with how much prices have come down over the years. I believe a DIY grid-tie system can be $.05-$.07/kwh (using 20 year lifespan for modules and rails and such; 10 year lifespan for inverters) I wouldn't expect an off-grid system to be >10x that cost (even with the lower kwh that can be effectively used and the higher cost of equipment). My guesstimate (without running through all the numbers) would be 3x higher because fewer kwh are usable and 2x higher because of extra equipment costs.

[J.P.M.]

there usually is only one right answer

And that's always the one from the code inspector, AHJ or Q.C. guy. But before that point, I can think of a lot of situations where I came up with an alternate design that was better than some other's, and other times when other engineers solutions or approaches beat my design hands down. I've found "rightness" is often a matter of degree with none of us being as smart as all of us.

[J.P.M.]

Then there is no permit required for grid tied either. You are full of BS.

You two are both retired Dolphins. How were these differences of opinion worked out on the boats ? Just curious.

[Kendalf]

My batteries cost less than the inverter did. I am not sure why you would think that batteries should cost more than the 'panels, controller and inverter'???

The current going rate for the EXIDE deep cycle batteries (27MDCST) that you've stated that you use is over $100 each, and you have 24 of them. What inverter do you have that costs more than $2400? Or were you able to pick up your batteries for significantly cheaper?

[organic farmer]

This sounds like something told to you by a solar salesman to convince you that it has to be done by them, not someone else.
If there really is a requirement like that it'd be encoded in state law -
The few quick searches I did showed no such laws/statutes for Maine.
Yes, you need a contract.
Yes, they have a reasonable right to put requirements on things connected to the grid (they are required to keep the grid safe)
No,
it's not a big deal.

Maine even has a law in place that the interconnect requirements are streamlined for a <10kW system (which most residential systems are)

I have attended a bunch of 'event's where the panel discussions included installers and political advocates.
They were the folks who told me [and huge crowds] that only specific licensed techs could work on solar systems.

... Looking at cmpco (one of the Maine POCOs) the interconnect application indicates it only needs the inspection by the "local code official".

The power company here is Bangor Hydro [who became 'Emera'].
The contract that I downloaded from their site, says their engineer had to do the inspection.

... Ok - so it's not an investment.

So maybe it's accurate that your cost per kwh is more than the POCO.
And therefore the payback is not 7 years, it's *never*.

I get every penny I spent back in depreciation [tax write-offs], and power for the next 20-years 'free'.

For now I go through a lot of distilled water, but it gives me an excuse to run water through our still sometimes
[you need to flush-out a still after every tenth batchs anyway]

... For most people they're looking at it as an investment. My DIY system (grid-tie) will pay for itself in ~4 years.

I think SunKing is putting the cost per kwh for a DIY off-grid system higher than it has to be with how much prices have come down over the years.
I believe a DIY grid-tie system can be $.05-$.07/kwh (using 20 year lifespan for modules and rails and such; 10 year lifespan for inverters)
I wouldn't expect an off-grid system to be >10x that cost (even with the lower kwh that can be effectively used and the higher cost of equipment).
My guesstimate (without running through all the numbers) would be 3x higher because fewer kwh are usable and 2x higher because of extra equipment costs.

7 cents per kwh sounds very reasonable.

[organic farmer]

You two are both retired Dolphins. How were these differences of opinion worked out on the boats ? Just curious.

Living for months at a time underwater. Debates can go on for years.

Every crewman has detailed knowledge in some field. Unless someone watches every movie that is shown, they will become a bookworm.

[sdold]

I get every penny I spent back in depreciation [tax write-offs], and power for the next 20-years 'free'.

Doesn't your system need to be a business expense for this?