What would residential solar look like without net metering?

[reader2580]

There are lots of posters who say net metering is a bad thing. Why? I imagine far fewer houses would have solar without net metering.

I would never have done solar without net metering. I am single and my power usage is almost nothing during the day in the winter. I tend to use most of my electricity outside of peak solar hours. My payback would be 100 years or more if I couldn't bank power for use when the sun is not shining. If/when net metering goes away I'll essentially be donating a lot of electricity to the power company since I can't use most of my production at the time it is produced. I highly net metering in Minnesota will go away before my system is paid for.

[Sunking]

There are lots of posters who say net metering is a bad thing. Why?

Real simple, utilities have no need for it. What it boils down to and most people do not know is utilities were allowed to raise electric rates to pay for the loses they incur for giving power away. It is a hidden tax imposed on the poor and people who cannot afford to participate. It is charity to the wealthy.

I imagine far fewer houses would have solar without net metering.

I would never have done solar without net metering.

There you go, without the subsidies, and they are subsidies paid by your neighbors. Without Net Metering and the free money on top of that utilities are forced to pay, there would be no solar. There is no need for it. You are not entitled to take money from your neighbors. Pay your own way.

[DanS26]

The problem with net metering is that it is a rate system that is politically and environmentally encouraged and reluctantly accepted by the investor owned utilities. As with most subsidies, it is very difficult to remove after the intended behavior is obtained. It also suffers the risk of unintended consequences of unfair cost shifting.

The POCO's in CA are first starting to grapple with this risk (see new SDGE rate proposals). You are in the Midwest where most states are moving to "net billing" or related schemes. In effect if you produce excess power and send it down the POCO line then you get paid wholesale rate for that power just like any other power producer. Getting paid retail for produced power is an unsustainable economic concept in the energy industry.

Without net metering and the energy credit, the rooftop residential solar market would collapse overnight. That is why the weaning process has started all over the country so that the transition from net metering to net billing is a little less painful.

[reader2580]

If utilities have no need for solar power why are huge commercial solar farms being built? The electric co-op that serves me pays about 7.5 cents per KWh for wholesale power. If they paid me that much for solar instead of simply paying nothing for it I could accept that.

Why do some of the most prolific posters here say that net metering should go away? Of course, these same posters probably already have gotten a lot of benefit from net metering and may have their systems paid off.

[sdold]

Why do some of the most prolific posters here say that net metering should go away? Of course, these same posters probably already have gotten a lot of benefit from net metering and may have their systems paid off.

Here's why I think net metering is generally a bad idea even though I've benefited from it: It's like forcing a gas station to store gas for you that you've gotten for free somewhere else, and give it back to you without making a dime. How would you feel if you owned that gas station? How would you feel if you were a customer of that gas station and the gas prices went up because the pumps wore out and had to be replaced? The people paying for the new pumps are the ones that buy the gas, not the ones that have it stored there for free and helped to wear them out. This is why a monthly fee to help maintain the grid makes sense to me and the $10 I pay seems like a good bargain (for me).

[SunEagle]

If utilities have no need for solar power why are huge commercial solar farms being built? The electric co-op that serves me pays about 7.5 cents per KWh for wholesale power. If they paid me that much for solar instead of simply paying nothing for it I could accept that.

Why do some of the most prolific posters here say that net metering should go away? Of course, these same posters probably already have gotten a lot of benefit from net metering and may have their systems paid off.

Being paid for electricity that you produce should be the same rate as what the POCO spends to produce it. Net Metering tends to pay you more.

The main reason is that the $/kWH rate structure that the POCO set up included money used by them to maintain their distribution system. It was simpler to show it that way instead of showing all of the specific costs that make up the electric bill. The true cost to produce a kWH is only a part of what a POCO charges a customer for each kWH.

As for why Utilities have started to build solar arrays.... well there are a number of reasons but for one the cost to generate power from solar has come down to being equal or even below the cost to generate power from other fuel sources. So why wouldn't a POCO build their own solar array.

Also remember that you are now a Co-Generator which in a sense is in competition with the POCO. Theirs is a business which has to provide their customers power 24/7 yet also has to turn a profit for their investors. Yours solar power is used to reduce your household budget to save a few dollars a month. Those are two different motivations.

[ButchDeal]

Being paid for electricity that you produce should be the same rate as what the POCO spends to produce it. Net Metering tends to pay you more.

distributed power has more value.

The power company does NOT have to pay transmission fees to get it to their network.
There is also almost ZERO transmission/distribution lose with distributed power as it tends to be generated very close to consumption.

Every KWh of power purchased by the powercompany for their customer use, has to come across miles of wire and usually pay a fee to transmission companies to get it.

The main reason is that the $/kWH rate structure that the POCO set up included money used by them to maintain their distribution system.

Yes but it does not include transmission network which are usually independently owned. They have to pay transmission fees to move power on those networks.
They have to maintain substations as well and distributed generation reduces the need and load on these considerably.
Distributed generation has extended the life of transmission and distribution networks reducing the capital outlay by power companies.

Power companies get this added capacity at the benefit of the capital outlay of homeowners, freeing capital for other projects. Many of the Power companies have chosen to use this freed up capital for their own solar projects.

[reader2580]

I have to pay about $7 per month for having solar.

If one day net metering went away and I got paid nothing for excess power I would probably turn on "Hawaii" mode in my inverter so I don't send any power into the grid.

[organic farmer]

There are lots of posters who say net metering is a bad thing. Why? I imagine far fewer houses would have solar without net metering.

I would never have done solar without net metering. I am single and my power usage is almost nothing during the day in the winter. I tend to use most of my electricity outside of peak solar hours. My payback would be 100 years or more if I couldn't bank power for use when the sun is not shining. If/when net metering goes away I'll essentially be donating a lot of electricity to the power company since I can't use most of my production at the time it is produced. I highly net metering in Minnesota will go away before my system is paid for.

I live in Maine. We have two Power Companies. Neither of them are required to pay net-metering homes anything. Effectively what you 'get' for putting power on the grid, is brownie points to use in the winter when you want to use grid power.

Net-metering systems cost significantly more than what off-grid solar systems cost.

I live on a farm. Nearly every expense I have is a tax deduction. The IRS mandates that solar systems must depreciate over 7 years. Every penny spent on solar power gets depreciated over a 7 year period. So the longest possible 'pay-back' for off-grid solar is 7 years.

All rate-payers in this state are taxed an extra fee, that is used to fund the power company's lobbyists who lobby the state legislature for net-metering subsidies.

[reader2580]

Net-metering systems cost significantly more than what off-grid solar systems cost.

I live on a farm. Nearly every expense I have is a tax deduction. The IRS mandates that solar systems must depreciate over 7 years. Every penny spent on solar power gets depreciated over a 7 year period. So the longest possible 'pay-back' for off-grid solar is 7 years.

What kind of net metering system are you using that costs more than an off-grid system? There would be tons of people going off grid if the price was cheaper than grid tied.

Just because you can depreciate your solar over seven years it does not mean it has paid for itself at the end of seven years.

[ButchDeal]

Net-metering systems cost significantly more than what off-grid solar systems cost.

The IRS mandates that solar systems must depreciate over 7 years. Every penny spent on solar power gets depreciated over a 7 year period. So the longest possible 'pay-back' for off-grid solar is 7 years.

off grid system is NOT cheaper than a grid tie system.
Further depreciation has little to do with payback.

[SunEagle]

distributed power has more value.

The power company does NOT have to pay transmission fees to get it to their network.
There is also almost ZERO transmission/distribution lose with distributed power as it tends to be generated very close to consumption.

Every KWh of power purchased by the powercompany for their customer use, has to come across miles of wire and usually pay a fee to transmission companies to get it.




Yes but it does not include transmission network which are usually independently owned. They have to pay transmission fees to move power on those networks.
They have to maintain substations as well and distributed generation reduces the need and load on these considerably.
Distributed generation has extended the life of transmission and distribution networks reducing the capital outlay by power companies.

Power companies get this added capacity at the benefit of the capital outlay of homeowners, freeing capital for other projects. Many of the Power companies have chosen to use this freed up capital for their own solar projects.

All true. I was just trying to clear up the fact that when I get charged $0.12 for each kWH that I use, that fee includes more than what it costs the POCO to produce a kWH.

While distributed generation may reduce the ware and tear on the grid the amount the POCO gets when solar isn't generating and everyone is purchasing power from the grid is not enough to maintain that grid.

The customers end up paying for just about everything and some of that money goes to the shareholders. I never said it was fair, I just know that it is a business and competing with co-generators can hurt that business if they did not plan for the reduced income.

[organic farmer]

off grid system is NOT cheaper than a grid tie system.
Further depreciation has little to do with payback.

I got quotes from three different installers.

A 4000watt net-metering grid-tied system is significantly more expensive than a DIY off-grid 4000watt system with 600ah battery-bank.

All three quotes came in far higher than the same size off-grid system.

I have posted this previously, multiple times.

Sorry to shatter your world, yet again.

[organic farmer]

What kind of net metering system are you using that costs more than an off-grid system?

I am NOT using an expensive net-metering system.

... There would be tons of people going off grid if the price was cheaper than grid tied.

Just because you can depreciate your solar over seven years it does not mean it has paid for itself at the end of seven years.

Our accountant would disagree

[Kendalf]

I got quotes from three different installers.

A 4000watt net-metering grid-tied system is significantly more expensive than a DIY off-grid 4000watt system with 600ah battery-bank.

All three quotes came in far higher than the same size off-grid system.

I would imagine that a DIY grid-tied system would be cheaper than that DIY off-grid system.