Questions about new system under production

[Markinphoenix]

Once again, your analysis is flawed. You need to compare what your electricity bill would be without solar to what it is with solar. To do that, you need good numbers on how much you are actually consuming. Just because the A/C is coming on and you aren't able to produce more than you are using, does not mean that the system is not saving you money.

I don't see how it's flawed at all. I AM using exact month to month numbers from 2015 as reported to me by APS. I have them all here in front of me, all 12 months, January to December. I"m comparing each months actual cost in non-solar 2015 to this months actual cost WITH solar. How is this wrong? I can take a picture of my sheet so you can see it!

[Markinphoenix]

I need a beer!!! LOL oh wait, I quit long ago! Crap!

[Markinphoenix]

It's almost impossible to compare it all apples to apples. Last year, with NO solar, I had a basic meter and paid flat rate 24/7. Now, i'm on a net metering meter on a totally different plan, using approx 20% less electricity. Even APS cannot accuratley convert last year to anything close to "time of use" so now, i'ts a tad more complicated. All I'm doing now is comparing month to month, year to year, keeping a running total of 2015 cost verses 2016 costs. Seems simple enough to me.

January, 2015. Paid $115.73 to APS. January 2016, paid SunPower, APS fixed BS fees, plus actual electricity fees totaling $126.53. I'm out of pocket $10.80

February, 2015, Paid $78.38 to APS. February 2016, paid SunPower, APS fixed BS fees, plus actual electricity fees totaling $125.75, now adding the above, i'm out of pocket $58.27

March, 2015, Paid 82.25 to APS. March 2016, paid SunPower, APS fixed BS fees, plus actual electricity fees totaling $123.27 Now adding up all three months, i'm out of pocket $99.29.

Please tell me how this is not a correct way to compare '05 to '16? Please remember, i'm fighting the system/cost/savings AS THEY WERE PRESENTED TO US by the salesman. I"m also fighting the exact terms of the lease, which i'm obligated to now for 20 years. Yes, it IS technically saving me "some" money right now, but as it's trending, and according to my power companies projections based on LAST YEARS ACTUAL USAGE, my banked credits will run completely OUT in June or July. I"m banking "some" on peak credits, but very very few! So yes, i'm saving "some" money right now, but not when compared to last years numbers, and projected through the year, I'll loose big time for 5 months when my credits are long gone and i'm needing ON PEAK electricity to the tune of 65 to 90kwh per day, from a system that SunPower says will only generate, on a perfect day, 50kwh!

[sensij]

Does APS require you to be on a TOU plan? If not... if you think TOU will work out worse for you than a base rate, why not switch back to the standard plan?

How do you know you are using 20% less electricity? If you have net metering, you can't just rely on APS numbers, you need to add back in the amount of daytime generation that is self consumed to get to your total consumption. You can calculate this from data recorded by your inverter, but it takes some attention to detail to get it worked out correctly.

[silversaver]

TOU plan in Arizona is totally different as CA. That is something I don't want to see in CA. If you choose a small sizing solar trying to offset with TOU, then God Bless You.

[Markinphoenix]

Okay how about this question. I've asked it numerous times month after month and not one person has answered. It seems to me that there should be a fairly simple answer. As I found out with the solar calculator yesterday it appears I need more panels. So I am asking everybody on here if your house requires 16223 kilowatt hours per year and you're looking at panels that produced 347 watts how many panels would you need to meet 16223 kilowatt hours in a year? Simple question? Yes? No? I'm sure somebody out there can figure it out because nobody has answered it yet.

APS says I need between 32 and 36 panels to meet 16223 kilowatt hours per year. That is my main question, has been, still is, and still is
un-answered.

If this is so easy, I'd love someone with more solar smarts than me to tell me that answer. I'm not trying to be a smart a $$, I'm trying to figure out some way to hold a company accountable that appears to have ripped off and taken advantage of an old couple on disability and retirement trying to save a buck. When I see house after house after house in my neighborhood going solar with smaller square footage and single air conditioners getting 35, 38 40, 42, and 48 panels and I'm sitting on a house under 18 panels with two buildings two Refrigeration units and a Shop full of tools bid woodworking, I gotta wonder if its going to work. APS says NO! Solar city says NO! My out of pocket costs for 3 months say NO!

But they do look pretty on my roof.

[J.P.M.]

Okay how about this question. I've asked it numerous times month after month and not one person has answered. It seems to me that there should be a fairly simple answer. As I found out with the solar calculator yesterday it appears I need more panels. So I am asking everybody on here if your house requires 16223 kilowatt hours per year and you're looking at panels that produced 347 watts how many panels would you need to meet 16223 kilowatt hours in a year? Simple question? Yes? No? I'm sure somebody out there can figure it out because nobody has answered it yet.

APS says I need between 32 and 36 panels to meet 16223 kilowatt hours per year. That is my main question, has been, still is, and still is
un-answered.

If this is so easy, I'd love someone with more solar smarts than me to tell me that answer. I'm not trying to be a smart a $$, I'm trying to figure out some way to hold a company accountable that appears to have ripped off and taken advantage of an old couple on disability and retirement trying to save a buck. When I see house after house after house in my neighborhood going solar with smaller square footage and single air conditioners getting 35, 38 40, 42, and 48 panels and I'm sitting on a house under 18 panels with two buildings two Refrigeration units and a Shop full of tools bid woodworking, I gotta wonder if its going to work. APS says NO! Solar city says NO! My out of pocket costs for 3 months say NO!

But they do look pretty on my roof.

1.) Go to PVWatts.
2.) Read the help/info screens.
3.) Do the input for your location/orientation.
4.) Run the size of the array up until the estimated, long term, average annual output is 16,223 kWh/yr.

Long term, average, estimated output is about as good as you'll find.

Because of the nature of the solar energy process and the weather, you will not get the precise answer to your question that you seem to be looking for and/or believe exists. Such things do not exist in this business. Therefore, any accountability, such as it exists at all, will tend to have very soft boundaries.

Note: The panel STC output is immaterial. It's the total array size that counts. FWIW, I think your panel size may be 327 Watts, not 347, but I could be wrong.

[silversaver]

Okay how about this question. I've asked it numerous times month after month and not one person has answered. It seems to me that there should be a fairly simple answer. As I found out with the solar calculator yesterday it appears I need more panels. So I am asking everybody on here if your house requires 16223 kilowatt hours per year and you're looking at panels that produced 347 watts how many panels would you need to meet 16223 kilowatt hours in a year? Simple question? Yes? No? I'm sure somebody out there can figure it out because nobody has answered it yet.

APS says I need between 32 and 36 panels to meet 16223 kilowatt hours per year. That is my main question, has been, still is, and still is
un-answered.

If this is so easy, I'd love someone with more solar smarts than me to tell me that answer. I'm not trying to be a smart a $$, I'm trying to figure out some way to hold a company accountable that appears to have ripped off and taken advantage of an old couple on disability and retirement trying to save a buck. When I see house after house after house in my neighborhood going solar with smaller square footage and single air conditioners getting 35, 38 40, 42, and 48 panels and I'm sitting on a house under 18 panels with two buildings two Refrigeration units and a Shop full of tools bid woodworking, I gotta wonder if its going to work. APS says NO! Solar city says NO! My out of pocket costs for 3 months say NO!

But they do look pretty on my roof.

With 18 panels, there's no way to cover 16,223kWh usage and I'm sure you have already known.

Solar will save you money, but you have come out with $$$ first to save money. There're lots people without solar and life still go on. Making right decision will save you money, solar can't.

[sunnyguy]

Your location can produce approximately the equivalent of 5 hours of full sun per day (yearly average). So 16223kwh/yr / 5h/day / 365 day/yr = 8.9kw / 347w/panel = 26 panels

[cebury]

Mark what other folks have also been trying to explain, and thus answer your question, is: you are trying to offset the COST of 16223kwh, not the kWh itself. There is a difference and until you can understand this, all the help folks are giving you can't be processed.

If the cost of 16223 kWh is $3,000 the question is "how many panels do I need to generate $3,000 worth of credit?"
Hint: the answer is less panels than are needed to generate 16223 kWh.

[solarix]

Well, still trying to nail down what your system size is (in DC kW). If 5.2kW then your yearly production can be estimated quite well by multiplying by the yield factor for Phoenix which is about 1650 kWh per kW. (use PVwatts to refine this) So that would be 8,580kWh per year. They are guaranteeing you 10,181kWh - which would imply your panels are more like 340watts. Either way, far short of the 16,154kWh you use - but that is common to do. Often times, the most cost effective strategy is to only do a PV system big enough to offset your daytime/on-peak usage of a time-of-use rate plan and then get the rest of your nighttime/off-peak power when the rates are really low and not cost effective to do with solar. It gets complicated (the utilities intentionally make their rate plans hard to figure) so your sales guy probably had a hard time explaining it.
If you are in APS territory, the time-of-use plan is called ET-2 or "time-advantaged" (look on the top of your bill) and has rates of about 17cents/kwh from noon to 7pm weekdays only, and about 6cent/kwh the rest of the week including holidays. Whether this is a good strategy for you depends on your usage patterns, whether you are home in the afternoons and have a lot of on-peak usage....
The bottom line in my area (of Arizona) is that:
- Leases don't save you any significant money until after the 20 years are up and they give you the system. (But make it possible for a lot more people to "do the right thing" and use solar)
- If you can use the tax credits you are far better off to own the system yourself. Payback times can be as short as 6-7 years.
- If you can't put up the cash for a PV system, look into a "solar loan" geared for this application.

[solarix]

16,223kWh / 1650kWh per kW = 9.832kW / 347watts = 28.3 solar panels. 1650 is a fairly conservative yield factor for your area. Work with PVwatts to refine it. Usually the last 10% of your usage is not cost effective to do with solar so if you want to use the standard rate plan with APS, I'd recommend 26 panels.

[Ian S]

Well, I'm in Phoenix with a four year old Sunpower system and I get about 12,400 kWh annually out of my 6.9 kW system (30 X 230 Watt panels.) That works out to about 1.8 kWh per rated panel watt. You want 16,200 kWh annual production, then you'll need a 9 kW system roughly. Or about 26 of the 347 watt panels. The problem with your calculation is that for the first few months of the year under APS, you are probably not using all your production and much of it is being banked for later use. Meanwhile, you are paying your monthly lease payments which apparently exceed the amounts paid for electricity in 2015. That is normal. Hopefully you are banking a lot of on peak electricity for use over the summer months when the on peak rate is (including taxes) about $0.26/kWh. That is when you will start to see big savings that should more than make up for your slight deficit up to now.

With APS, how net metering is applied is not as advantageous as it is in states like Cali. It is very difficult to size your system to take care of summer needs and not end up with a lot of over production in the fall that gets paid off in December @ $0.029/kWh. That's just the way it is and it's apt to get worse for the solar customer in the near future.

[Markinphoenix]

Thanks everyone for your replies I really do appreciate it I am quite lost in kilowatt hours and kilowatts and watts and hours versus this and that I don't understand it. That's why I've been asking questions here trying to educate myself and talking to the gentleman at Home Depot from Solar City. I understand there are many many variables when it comes to producing electricity from solar system I get it I really do. But on my side of the fence I am being held to the letter and number on the lease. There is no flexibility in the legal document that I signed. My electric rate in Phoenix is called the epr 6, 7pm to noon. "On peak is noon to 7pm.

All of this was presented to my wife and I a year ago with a 24-7 basic meter numbers with a zero money for electricity every month. It was that simple but we were lied to. Now after the system is up and on, the metering is changed, the meter itself has changed. everybody has changed the rules except the lease that's the killer. If I didn't have a lease I could do whatever I wanted. I could add more panels I could do this do that do whatever but I cannot I cannot touch the system without voiding the entire warranty and being liable for everything.

I am not banking a ton of kilowatt hours I'm banking a very small amount. I'm not trying to be a smart guy okay please don't take me wrong I appreciate your help but I am ignoranot in solar computations, I don't understand it.

If a couple of you who have been kind enough to give me good answers would like to look at my APS account send me a private message I'll be happy to send you my login name and my password. Harmon had it for a while but im done with them. There is nothing you can do there any way except maybe pay my bill for me haha. As I said I don't understand how to figure it all out. In the beginning it was very simple a quote from the salesman "you will owe nothing because of banking and overproduction". That is a lie. Then sitting on our couch Tom Hayes, Harmon salesman says "trust me Mark, it will.work." that was and apparently still is, a lie.

There is no "zero cost of electricity". have the monthly crap fees of about $27 plus I have my $96 whatever fee to SunPower plus I have the actual cost of electricity which I'm paying. I am paying more per month this year than I paid last year that is the only criteria legally I can stand on if I have to go up against them in court. Am I saving money so far? no I am not. If any of you would like it my information for APS I'll be happy to give it to you for a week or two and then I'll change the password again, it's not a big deal.

[Markinphoenix]

I have tried 7 or 8 times now to go to Pvwatts.com. when I try and go there I end up at Ww42.pvwatts.com. I get arrows that I click on for information and I get links to companies and more companies and more companies. I don't know what's going on but that's what it's been since yesterday. I just tried it again just now I get the same thing. Maybe on my PC it would work? But my tablet and phone yield the same thing for 2 days now.