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  • Markinphoenix
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2015
    • 85

    Questions about new system under production

    I have a current working Sun power system, that has been online approximately 7 weeks. I'm on a 20 year lease, all the information that we received early on, was very very poorly presented and now we have a huge problem. I am expecting a call back from the local company owner tomorrow with a final answer on what to do so I am hoping somebody can give me some ideas quickly. Sorry but we're really in a bind. Short story. A good friend referred this local company to us, same salesman. He asked for numbers and I gave him three years which averaged out to show a yearly need of 16,154 kilowatt hours per year. He came back and told me that they had a system that would work and I was told I only needed 18 panels. I questioned it and again he assured me it was fine. I did not understand how to compute numbers and averages and percentages and he mentioned something about 67% but I did not understand what he was talking about but I took his word because his quote was "trust me mark it will work". Well long story short my current system is producing 27 kilowatt per day but I need, according to what I gave them at 16,154, 44 kilowatt hours per day just to break even.
    At this point we are not in good shape financially to have $300 and $400 electric bills in the summer.

    The salesman sat in our living room and told us, with a system designed as it is, with banking and over production, we would break even by December. That will never happen. It is mathematically impossible to make 27 kilowatts per day equal 44 kilowatts needed. I now feel like I know way more than this salesman as he continually had to call in to answer my questions. Since we put the system on I have become better educated, and feel that we really were misled.

    Anyway our numbers are they needed yearly amount of 16,154which equals 44 kilowatt hours per day average production but we are only producing 27 maximum consistent numbers. What I got was a system making 10,181, plus or minus.makes no sense to me since they knew I needed 16,000+.

    All I am asking them to do is tell me how much it will cost to add more panels to bring us to an even amount each year. We were told by our salesman that our bill would be 32 to $34 per month but that would be zeroed out due to banking and overproduction. My local power company says my minimum bill will be $27 forever and in the summer time for 6 months will vary between $100 to $400 per month plus what I pay sunpower for the next 20 years. Sorry this is so long, I hope somebody can help me come up with a good presentation to the owner tomorrow. I need information and help. Thanks
    Mark in Phoenix
    Last edited by Markinphoenix; 12-14-2015, 12:06 AM. Reason: Bab spelling
  • solar pete
    Administrator
    • May 2014
    • 1816

    #2
    Hi Markinphoenix and welcome to Solar Panel Talk.A bit more info is needed. What size are the panels, we will need to know the size in kW of your system. So if those 18 panels are 300watt you have a 5.4kW system. System sizing is important and there are differing opinions as how to best do that. You also need to understand that there will be days when the system is way down on its averages due to cloudy or rainy conditions, that's why we always work with 12 monthly averages. Unfortunately it would have been better for you if you had found this forum before you got a system, right now its hard for us to gauge how much was poor work from the consultant or a poor understanding of how things work. Maybe some locals will chime in with their 2 cents worth, good luck

    Comment

    • sensij
      Solar Fanatic
      • Sep 2014
      • 5074

      #3
      Solar panels will produce much less in the winter than they will in the summer. The 27 kWh / day you are generating right now (very close to the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year) is not representative of your system's annual output.

      I would suggest spending some time with PVWatts, and read the documentation. If you share the size of the array (18 of the Sunpower 327's? 335's? 345's?) , the direction they are facing (south, SW, SE, etc), and the amount of tilt they have (or the pitch of your roof), we can help you understand what annual output you might see in a typical year.
      CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

      Comment

      • Markinphoenix
        Junior Member
        • Dec 2015
        • 85

        #4
        Thanks everyone, the panels are supposedly rated @ 357 watts per panel. System is due south facing on a 4,-12 pitch roof.
        Lease states system production average MAX of 5.2 which I assume would be 52 kilowatts per day but that would be under ideal full Sun and that won't happen. They say I am guaranteed 10,181 per year, 20 years, period, you signed, bye bye!, which is equal to 27 kilowatts per day but I have run the numbers and I can post them if I can scan them and send them to my phone and then upload proving that with " over production and banking" 27kwh per day will not workout as we were told. That is the problem, the lease says one thing the salesman said another. Not being fully up to speed we took his word as did my friend and his system is under producing also, a lot under! Same salesman, same rating panels and inverter. Similar houses, he got 34 panels, I got 18??? 2 other close houses here with different brand but both over 40 panels! Crap! I want those ! LoL

        Comment

        • Markinphoenix
          Junior Member
          • Dec 2015
          • 85

          #5
          By taking a month to month comparison, using 44 kilowatt hours per day, banking and 7% over production, as I'm getting now, will bring me to a wash next December. @ 27 kilowatts per day I am banking 10% of what I need during the summer. At 44 kilowatts per day, I am banking just a little over 100% just to break even, no cushion no margin for error. But we were told the $32 to $34 owed to our power company overcand above our payment to SP, would be wiped out by "banking and overproduction." It will never work at this rate, I need 44, to do what we were told would happen, not what the lease is saying. They are two totally different numbers with two totally different outcomes. That is the problem.

          And I'm still trying to learn how to put pictures up. I'm not winning but maybe tomorrow I can figure it out. I have my own server so I can link to those if I upload them tomorrow. Thanks again I'll be up for awhile. Its close to bedtime and I'm expecting a call tomorrow morning. Thanks again

          Mark
          Last edited by Markinphoenix; 12-14-2015, 12:38 AM. Reason: Goofs, im old and tired! LoL

          Comment

          • Markinphoenix
            Junior Member
            • Dec 2015
            • 85

            #6
            Hey I had success. That is all I have, early on I offered to remove the dormer, to make room for more panels but they said no. I offered the back of the house on 45 degree mounts or my patio on 20+- degree mounts, but again they said no, 18 was enough. It's over producing by 7% but it's 33% too stinking small.
            You do not have permission to view this gallery.
            This gallery has 1 photos.

            Comment

            • sensij
              Solar Fanatic
              • Sep 2014
              • 5074

              #7
              Ok, there aren't any 357 W panels that are commonly installed. I'll assume that 327's are what were installed.

              Running PVWatts model for mid-phoenix for an 18 panel system (5.886 kW) at the orientation you've described does roughly output about 27 kWh / day right now. Total annual production output is something like 11000-11500 kWh.

              There is a chance that they switched you to a Time-of-use rate plan that will allow the kWh you generate to offset a greater number of kWh consumed, but it is probably not likely.

              It does sound like you were misled, which is, unfortunately, fairly common... especially with leases. Also, paying to have more panels installed might not be the most cost effective choice at this point. The forum is fortunate to have as a member a quality installer who works in AZ... hopefully Solarix sees this post and can offer some more concrete advice.
              CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

              Comment

              • Markinphoenix
                Junior Member
                • Dec 2015
                • 85

                #8
                Thanks for the input. I will see what others offer and will wait for tomorrow to see what they say. If I could get 10 to 12 more panels and only have to pay an additional 30 to $40 a month it might work. But we just cannot afford up to $400 a month payments during the summer when are equalizer plan was $244. Such is life, we're getting used to being beat down. Our salesman told us we would save a hundred and $30 per month but our lease shows in fine print, only $30 per month. Are 20 year projection went into the toilet and it was basically a complete waste of money for us to put a new roof and air conditioner on before the system was installed. We are now $8,000 in debt and have a system that will never do what we were told as we get into our older years of retirement.

                Comment

                • Yaryman
                  Banned
                  • Aug 2015
                  • 245

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Markinphoenix
                  Our 20 year projection went into the toilet and it was basically a complete waste of money for us to put a new roof and air conditioner on
                  before the system was installed. We are now $8,000 in debt and have a system that will never do what we were told as we get into our older years of retirement.
                  Looking at the photo leads me to believe you have asphalt shingles. Were those a replacement for asphalt shingles? If so, putting on the new roof was the right thing to do as
                  the life expectancy of asphalt shingles in Arizona is at most 20 years. You wouldn't want to have to take down the solar panels to put on a new roof.

                  What is with that God awful sign advertising the company?
                  Did the claim you got a better price because they put up the sign?


                  Comment

                  • Markinphoenix
                    Junior Member
                    • Dec 2015
                    • 85

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Yaryman

                    Looking at the photo leads me to believe you have asphalt shingles. Were those a replacement for asphalt shingles? If so, putting on the new roof was the right thing to do as
                    the life expectancy of asphalt shingles in Arizona is at most 20 years. You wouldn't want to have to take down the solar panels to put on a new roof.

                    What is with that God awful sign advertising the company?
                    Did the claim you got a better price because they put up the sign?

                    Yes those are asphalt shingles and they are brand new. My roof was 17 years old and I knew it had to be done eventually and this was a perfect time. My air conditioner was 20 years old we had add that into the price of preparing for the panels to make everything work the best it could. We use top of the line shingles and the company did a great job. As I stated previously this sign with a Photoshop joke and was never in my front yard. Depending on tomorrow or Tuesday, there may be a new sign, a real sign, on my roof.

                    Comment

                    • cebury
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 646

                      #11
                      we would break even by December.
                      He probably meant your lease payment + new lowered electric bill would equal less than your old electric payment -- for the month of December. May not be so in Summer but the electric bill portion will certainly be much less.

                      Definitely stop comparing the 40 panels your neighbors have, rather compare the size of the systems (5.89 kw DC is yours). As Sensij has calculated, your system will likely produce 11-11.5k over 12 months, on average over time, not the 10k stated in your contract. They under promise energy generation so they don't have to pay out on the guarantee. That is sort-of good news for you.

                      Your electric payment will not be anywhere near the same it was before, despite what APS is telling you. I'd believe the "27 minimum forever" comment, but not the up to "400 month" portion if your bill was never over 550 in summer before and you do not change your consumption.

                      What was your last 12 months of kwh usage? He may have ignored the 3 year average of 16k as many installers do. Certain utilities only consider the last 12 months evidence for allowance of max sizing the system anyway.

                      was basically a complete waste of money for us to put a new roof and air conditioner on before the system was installed.
                      This is probably not true. What is the new AC seer rating compared to your old? It looks like your roof may also have "cool roof" classification and it faces south. If your AC was 20+ years old it was likely under 10 seer. My 23 yr old was rated 8.5 seer and I'm sure performed much worse due to age and leakage. We replaced with 16 seer and our electric kwh usage dropped 30% for summer months, but we used it all day long.

                      It's possible they found a "sweet spot" for you with 18 panels, albeit through some guessing. Adding more panels may not be a good (strictly financial) decision. Perhaps they found a great balance of cost vs. benefit, bang-for-your-buck approach with the system you have. Going with a second array, reverse tilting, etc will certainly be more per panel, not to mention the aesthetic hit your house will take.

                      Most of my post is speculation, but I'm trying to be helpful as you meet with them today.

                      Consider the possibility, with the new AC+roof, some generation credits from net billing, your next 12 months of average electrical costs will be below the $284/month equalization payment.

                      Comment

                      • Markinphoenix
                        Junior Member
                        • Dec 2015
                        • 85

                        #12
                        Wow, someone else is up early. Its 4:30 here in Phoenix and I'm sitting at Denny's having nasty coffee. But thanks for your reply. I'll try and clarify a few points if I can without annoying anybody in here talking to my cell phone.

                        The three years that I gave them were for 2006-2007 and 2008, the three years I worked in my shop before I had my heart surgery and shut it down, until this year. I have an 800 square foot shop well insulated with a 1 ton AC. My house is 1100 square feet with a new three and a half ton, 13 seer American standard unit. The owner of the company requested 2015 numbers. I gave them to him. 2015 numbers are 16248 kilowatt hours. Even more than years ago when I was running my shop. It was a few dollars more which surprised me but I was also again running the air conditioning while I brought my shop back up to you be used again. I ran the numbers from this year, I need 44. I ran the banking numbers versus what I need and 27 falls way short. I need 44 per day to even out 2015 numbers by next December, 12 months from now. We were told by the salesman our electric bill would be 0, month after month after month because of banking and overproduction. It is not possible with a system that is advertised @ 5.2. It only produces 27. Yes it will produce more in the summer time but according to APS I will have $200 - $400 electric bills 5 - 6 months out of the year. I have done the math 8 ways from Sunday and 27 will not give me 16000 + kilowatt hours per year just to break even as we were told. I got every month total cost for this year and yes I had some $500 + monthly bills running dual A/C'S and tools.

                        My 16000 + kilowatt-hour number is accurate as I previously presented it to them 6 months ago but they gave me a system that will only produce 11000. The lease shows 10,881, but we need 16,000, as presented to them 6 months ago and S P has verified. We were lied to and the whole thing was clearly misrepresented. We will be paying sunpower $104 a month, adding to that what we were told $32 a month to APS at night usage, that works out to $136. Subtract that from $244 and I'm happy. $244 was my equalizer payment, which now is long gone. The whole thing is a giant train wreck of misinformation and BS. What we were told and what they gave us were two totally different things. Having a $400 APS bill added to $104 to sunpower does not equal anything we can afford to pay outside of an equalizer plan. We got screwed, and so did my friend. But maybe today I will get some good news. I sure hope so I could really use it right now.

                        Hope everyone has a good day. Its 5am and time for a snack.

                        Comment

                        • J.P.M.
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Aug 2013
                          • 14926

                          #13
                          OP: As Sensij writes, Get and learn PVWatts and get educated, if only to put your mind at some ease that you did not necessarily get completely screwed. I'm not a big fan of POCO s or leases, and no offense meant, but part of what you seem to think is misleading vendor information looks to me like some fair amount of user ignorance. I'd also agree w/ Sensig's SWAG of ~ 11,00+ kWh/yr. out of that approx. size system.

                          Solarix and also member Ian, in Phoenix, may have some additional local insight as to billing, tariffs and POCO shenanigans that may actually make your system more appropriately sized than you may think, at least from a cost effective standpoint.

                          I'm not bustin' on you, but readers who are considering solar would be well advised to take note of your situation, and take time and learn how solar works, lease vs. buy and what they are getting into before they pull the trigger, and perhaps avoid mistakes and misinformation.

                          BTW, and as others have written, your system will produce quite a bit more in summer than winter as you will find out next summer, or sooner as your information quest will soon reveal.

                          Comment

                          • Markinphoenix
                            Junior Member
                            • Dec 2015
                            • 85

                            #14
                            Thanks for your reply I appreciate it. I guess I am ignorant, that's why I went to a trusted company and to a salesman appeared to know what he was talking about. All I can do is wait it out and hope that my 5.2 system is kicking about 8 in the summer to help make up the difference that we need. But back in the days as a mechanic and then owning my own cabinet shop, I did not expect any of my customers to be as knowledgeable as me,, that's why they hired me, a professional, with a spotless reputation. But those days seem to be gone in the only thing people care about is getting all they can from anybody they can. So if Harmon does what sunpower did and tells me to go away, so be it but I will bad mouth that company until the day that I die.

                            Comment

                            • J.P.M.
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Aug 2013
                              • 14926

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Markinphoenix
                              Thanks for your reply I appreciate it. I guess I am ignorant, that's why I went to a trusted company and to a salesman appeared to know what he was talking about. All I can do is wait it out and hope that my 5.2 system is kicking about 8 in the summer to help make up the difference that we need. But back in the days as a mechanic and then owning my own cabinet shop, I did not expect any of my customers to be as knowledgeable as me,, that's why they hired me, a professional, with a spotless reputation. But those days seem to be gone in the only thing people care about is getting all they can from anybody they can. So if Harmon does what sunpower did and tells me to go away, so be it but I will bad mouth that company until the day that I die.
                              Read "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" - a free download. It may provide some mental salve for you angst. I think leases suck, but at @ $104/mo. = $1,248/yr. you'll be paying $1,248/11,000 ~ = $0.11/kWh. I don't know how that works into your POCO billing schemes, but it could probably be worse.

                              As for expecting honesty, well, Caveat Emptor.

                              Comment

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