Solar and EV's - Great Investment!

[J.P.M.]

He had until February 28th to enroll in the old TOU-D-A plan. Starting today, those are the new plans. He got grandfathered into a much better plan. It is 10 PM for his plan. See the grandfathered TOU-D-A plan

https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/sce-grandfathered-rate-plans

Understood. I stand corrected.

[discodanman45]

Also, I notice the link you've provided shows off peak rates starting at 9 P.M. for what SCE suggests for EV owners, or 8 P.M for others, not 10 P.M. as you state.

He had until February 28th to enroll in the old TOU-D-A plan. Starting today, those are the new plans. He got grandfathered into a much better plan. It is 10 PM for his plan. See the grandfathered TOU-D-A plan

https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/sce-grandfathered-rate-plans

[J.P.M.]

I looked up his TOU, it starts at 10 PM. That is why I said it 😁

https://www.sce.com/residential/rate...ial-Rate-Plans

I understand that now that you've stated it in that way. But to me what you wrote looks like a blanket statement applicable to most everyone Guess I just need a little more information to avoid confusion on my part.

Also, I notice the link you've provided shows off peak rates starting at 9 P.M. for what SCE suggests for EV owners, or 8 P.M for others, not 10 P.M. as you state.

There are also other "rate options" listed on the CSE rate sheet #63179-F (near the bottom) as part of the current (eff. 02/07/2019) SCE sch. D tariff sheets that are a bit confusing as to when or how such options are available or might/not be combined. One of those options is super off peak "10 P.M. to 8 A.M., all year, every day."

From what Ward L. writes, I'd bet he's probably already combed through the actual rate sheets.

[discodanman45]

I'd be careful about quoting charging times. Super off peak, if it exits at all, may be different for different POCOs. Example: Mine starts at midnight and runs to 6 A.M. weekdays and midnight to 2 P.M. on weekends for non NEM T.O.U., with similar but slightly different hours for T.O.U. NEM cust.

I looked up his TOU, it starts at 10 PM. That is why I said it 😁

https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/Time-Of-Use-Residential-Rate-Plans

[J.P.M.]

I really think it is the best plan for an EV. Just be aware of peak times and reduce use at that time. I have signs in the laundry room with the timez we can do laundry 😁 . Set your car to charge at 10 pm and you will see more credits. Maybe enough to persuade yourself for a second EV. Maybe a $35,000 Model 3!

I'd be careful about quoting charging times. Super off peak, if it exits at all, may be different for different POCOs. Example: Mine starts at midnight and runs to 6 A.M. weekdays and midnight to 2 P.M. on weekends for non NEM T.O.U., with similar but slightly different hours for T.O.U. NEM cust.

[discodanman45]

If you haven't already gotten on the waiting list I seriously doubt you will see a Model 3 at that price anytime soon.

They say 2-4 months on the website. I think if you order today it will be within 6 months, depending on location.

[SunEagle]

I really think it is the best plan for an EV. Just be aware of peak times and reduce use at that time. I have signs in the laundry room with the timez we can do laundry 😁 . Set your car to charge at 10 pm and you will see more credits. Maybe enough to persuade yourself for a second EV. Maybe a $35,000 Model 3!

If you haven't already gotten on the waiting list I seriously doubt you will see a Model 3 at that price anytime soon.

[discodanman45]

Based on the feedback from this forum I have changed my power company rate from a tiered plan to a TOU plan. Like so many things new, it is confusing. I've used SoCal Edison's online rate tool and Excel to estimate my best choice. The SoCal Edison tool predicted a slightly different result than my spreadsheet and I went with my spreadsheet choice. I have switched to the TOU-DA plan. Today is the last day I could have switched to that plan. DiscoDanMan45 pushed me over, thanks Dan!

I really think it is the best plan for an EV. Just be aware of peak times and reduce use at that time. I have signs in the laundry room with the timez we can do laundry 😁 . Set your car to charge at 10 pm and you will see more credits. Maybe enough to persuade yourself for a second EV. Maybe a $35,000 Model 3!

[J.P.M.]

Based on the feedback from this forum I have changed my power company rate from a tiered plan to a TOU plan. Like so many things new, it is confusing. I've used SoCal Edison's online rate tool and Excel to estimate my best choice. The SoCal Edison tool predicted a slightly different result than my spreadsheet and I went with my spreadsheet choice. I have switched to the TOU-DA plan. Today is the last day I could have switched to that plan. DiscoDanMan45 pushed me over, thanks Dan!

Don't know if you are aware of this or not, and FWIW onlyu, but IOU POCOs in CA will allow you to switch back after changing plans if you find out within 12 billing periods (or less I believe) that the switch resulted in a higher rate being paid for electricity.

[Ward L]

Based on the feedback from this forum I have changed my power company rate from a tiered plan to a TOU plan. Like so many things new, it is confusing. I've used SoCal Edison's online rate tool and Excel to estimate my best choice. The SoCal Edison tool predicted a slightly different result than my spreadsheet and I went with my spreadsheet choice. I have switched to the TOU-DA plan. Today is the last day I could have switched to that plan. DiscoDanMan45 pushed me over, thanks Dan!

[J.P.M.]

In California we will find out soon enough about EV charging capacity at night. I believe about 7% of all cars sold in 2018 were EV's in California. Some of the Bay Area cities were over 20% in buying EV's. These numbers will continue to rise and night time charging will continue to grow. In about 5 years we will see changes to TOU rates. We might even see tiered TOU rates to make charging more expensive at night. Right now PG&E's EV-A rate is a crazy deal. I am only producing 75% of my energy needs and it will cost me under $300 per year to cover the remaining 25%. I just hope more people don't catch on to this!

Tiered T.O.U. rates are with us now. That's so far taking the form of what looks like T.O.U. until you look at the rate sheets and realize that the "credit" for the first 130% (= tier one on the tiered schedules) amounts to laying a tiered rate schedule over a T.O.U. schedule.

One point: Not all T.O.U. rates for NEM customers are so constructed, but non NEM T.O.U. rate payers to the CA I.O.U.'s are seeing such hybrid rate schedules. I wonder how many know it. Depending on the actual hourly rates and "credit" amounts on the first 130% of a billing period's usage, such schemes can easily negate most of a super off peak rate advantage.

[Ampster]

One thing that keeps crossing my mind lately seems to be a gray area not mentioned much, if at all. If I have a vehicle sufficient for my transportation needs, and fairly new, and I "like" it, where would I put the cost of a new EV to justify an oversized array ? Seems to me the only way to justify an EV before the end of the current vehicle's service life is by savings in fuel and maint. But if I've simply got excess generation capacity, seems like a new EV expense is a costly justification to what may be a mistake (the oversizing of an array).

You are making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be. An EV and solar generation are a system to harvest energy from the sun and propel you down the road. Cars are as much a personal decision as a financial one. In the past have been changing cars every 3 years because I like the features including safety upgrades. I may lengthen that change because one of my EVs is constantly getting over the air updates so it feels like a new car on the mornings that I get the update message.

I appreciate the new car bug, and the Porsche Taycan is gnawing at my brain daily, so maybe the question ought to be something like where does one put the cost of the brain gnaw ?

VW missed their 2018 EV goal by a lot so I wouldn't worry too much about the Taycan being actually in dealers for some time. The Taycan may be another mystery brought to you by the conspirators of dieselgate.

Not saying it's good/bad, but my guess is a potential PV owner would need to drive a lot of miles/yr. to justify EV cost for the fuel and maint. savings alone over an ICE vehicle, and so, maybe not justifiable for a lot of folks from a cost effectiveness standpoint. However, I certainly appreciate the emotional need that can easily negate sanity with respect to vehicle ownership. I'm sure the makers of EV's feel the same way.

You are correct. If a car saves you x$ per mile you probably need to drive it enough miles to offset the extra cost. But that is more about whether you should buy a new car or just limp along with an old clunker.It is not unique to the decision to purchase an EV.

One other thought (and note Ampster - a bit off topic): Suppose EV';s REALLY take off (politics cause gas prices to double/some international B.S. crisis/whatever) with the result being the grid gets pushed past capacity at nite from all the charging taking place. What may/possibly may happen to T.O.U. rates and peak rate times ? Just wonderin'.

No worries that is an important issue related to the topic of this thread, The capacity issue is another argument used by the anti EV contingent. Take a look at the duck curve and you will realize that there is plenty of capacity late at night and in the middle part of the day because of the large growth in solar buildout in California.

More data is available at the CAISO site. My view is primarily from the perspective of California because that is where you and I live and because it has the fastest growth in EV sales and solar installations in the USA. If any problems are going to surface, we will probably see them in California first. Better minds than I (including CAISO) have spent a lot of time on that issue and it is really not an issue. My philosophy, like Bruce, is to be net zero so I am hedging my bets in case the policy makers in California get it wrong and the grid is really stressed. In that case you can bet that prices would rise which would make more solar capacity even more attractive. I have already looked at my roof and figured out where I could put another 3 kW of panels.

[discodanman45]

JPM, I've wondered the same thing about how the power companies are going to generate enough power to charge up all the EVs. Maybe there is enough slack capacity at night that it won't be an issue. As far as the price of gas, as demand drops for gas, so will the price of gasoline. It will be awhile before EVs start impacting the price of gas, but it is amazing to think that we will have front row seats to watch and experience this automobile revolution. I've heard, but not sure I believe it, that you could burn gasoline in your power plant to generate electricity to power your EV more efficiently than burning the gasoline in your ICE. In any event, the experience of charging up your EV effortlessly at night vs buying gas at a station, the feeling that your EV is not spewing out fumes as you sit idling in traffic and the smooth and exciting torque of an electric motor will sweep over the country with amazing speed. Certainly there are some cold weather issues. I don't see the long haul trucks making their way over frozen mountain passes anytime soon. But someday....

And as far as me ignorantly over investing in solar panels, I knew what I was buying and I bought the largest system SCE would allow because I wanted to. It is no different than someone buying an $85,000

Porsche Taycan to drive from point A to point B. You could buy a $60,000 Tesla and save $25k. Neither one is necessarily being ignorant.

In California we will find out soon enough about EV charging capacity at night. I believe about 7% of all cars sold in 2018 were EV's in California. Some of the Bay Area cities were over 20% in buying EV's. These numbers will continue to rise and night time charging will continue to grow. In about 5 years we will see changes to TOU rates. We might even see tiered TOU rates to make charging more expensive at night. Right now PG&E's EV-A rate is a crazy deal. I am only producing 75% of my energy needs and it will cost me under $300 per year to cover the remaining 25%. I just hope more people don't catch on to this!

[discodanman45]

One other thought (and note Ampster - a bit off topic): Suppose EV';s REALLY take off (politics cause gas prices to double/some international B.S. crisis/whatever) with the result being the grid gets pushed past capacity at nite from all the charging taking place. What may/possibly may happen to T.O.U. rates and peak rate times ? Just wonderin'.

Electric companies can change plans according to TOU to make it more profitable for themselves. PG&E used to have between 1 PM to 7 PM as peak. Now they go 2 PM to 9 PM as peak. This change was big for solar because you need to go a few hours at peak usage without solar. Because of the peak prices, it is much more beneficial to have West panels instead of East. If everyone installed West panels because of this, then PG&E could make peak hours from 7 am to 2 PM, making East panels more beneficial, The game could continue every few years.

If the grid is being used too much at night, then PG&E would grandfather the current EV-A rates and start a new TOU which would discourage night time charging. When I am charging both cars at night I am pulling over 17 kW just from my cars alone for 4 to 5 hours straight. Imagine if 50% of people did this... It seems like most TOU plans get grandfathered for at least 5 years, but they could just cancel them quickly if they want.

[Ward L]

JPM, I've wondered the same thing about how the power companies are going to generate enough power to charge up all the EVs. Maybe there is enough slack capacity at night that it won't be an issue. As far as the price of gas, as demand drops for gas, so will the price of gasoline. It will be awhile before EVs start impacting the price of gas, but it is amazing to think that we will have front row seats to watch and experience this automobile revolution. I've heard, but not sure I believe it, that you could burn gasoline in your power plant to generate electricity to power your EV more efficiently than burning the gasoline in your ICE. In any event, the experience of charging up your EV effortlessly at night vs buying gas at a station, the feeling that your EV is not spewing out fumes as you sit idling in traffic and the smooth and exciting torque of an electric motor will sweep over the country with amazing speed. Certainly there are some cold weather issues. I don't see the long haul trucks making their way over frozen mountain passes anytime soon. But someday....

And as far as me ignorantly over investing in solar panels, I knew what I was buying and I bought the largest system SCE would allow because I wanted to. It is no different than someone buying an $85,000

Porsche Taycan to drive from point A to point B. You could buy a $60,000 Tesla and save $25k. Neither one is necessarily being ignorant.