Where's the rest of the cost?

[motorcyclemikie]

I get the feeling that you are feeling proud you have discovered a "secret" or something that will allow you to be more intelligent and frugal than anyone else. A lot of people go through that phase. Usually it's an expensive one.

I wholeheartedly disagree, bewildered is more of the term that I would use for these "secrets" I have discovered. I passed over the 3 panel configuration in favor of the "double" configuration because solaredge even put leads for 2 panels on the P800p in anticipation of me, and other logical reasons I'm sure.

JF I don't have a problem with configuring for only 2 panels (modules), I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely, accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it. apparently every time it must have ended in disaster and everyone died, I don't know

[foo1bar]

I passed over the 3 panel configuration in favor of the "double" configuration because solaredge even put leads for 2 panels on the P800p in anticipation of me, and other logical reasons I'm sure.

The P800 is designed/intended for large 3phase power installations.
It's meant to be used with 16kW+ commercial installations.
In those type of situations two modules per optimizer makes a lot of sense.
I think in those situations the end customer is likely to be OK with monitoring at the pair-of-modules granularity and is willing to accept not having the per-module monitoring.

JF I don't have a problem with configuring for only 2 panels (modules), I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely, accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it. apparently every time it must have ended in disaster and everyone died, I don't know

The documents don't say it will work.
I have no reason to believe that will work since the optimizers and the inverter have to talk to each other and there's nothing from the manufacturer that says they'll speak the same language. (In fact their documentation actually says they don't work together.)
So if the documentation from the manufacturer says "don't do this, it's not supported", why spend money to see if it'll work?
But hey, it's your money - if you spend it this way let us know what you find out. From the documentation from Solaredge it looks like min number of optimizers in a string of P800p's is 13 - so that could be a problem for you as well.

Since you've changed your plans on the modules being hooked up to it, you might want to look at a P600/P650
That's also only intended for use with 3-phase inverters - but at least it isn't only intended for 16kW+ three phase.
And I think the P650 is more likely to be a good fit to the modules you're considering.
I still expect it won't work.
I'd encourage you to do some google searches to see if anyone has made the mistake of ordering P600 with single-phase inverter.
And of course you should think about your exit plan for selling those optimizers that work with 3-phase inverters. You're likely to find they don't work, so might as well plan for that up front.

[bcroe]

I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely,
accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it.

I guess now with You Tu.., it is just expected that every possible error will be documented. Bruce Roe

[jflorey2]

I wholeheartedly disagree, bewildered is more of the term that I would use for these "secrets" I have discovered.

No worries. This is a good place to come to be less bewildered, but not a good place to come to get your misconceptions reinforced.

I just find it unusual that a P800p optimizer has never been purposely, accidentally or otherwise used with a SE7600H inverter and documented it. apparently every time it must have ended in disaster and everyone died, I don't know

And I have never seen a SMA inverter with its Secure Power output wired to house wiring, and a battery put on its input side instead of a solar array. Might that work? Maybe. Why hasn't anyone done that? Because the downsides (potential fire, likely inverter failure, almost certain unhappiness) outweigh the positives (cheap way to get backup solar power.)

If someone wants to do that experiment - AND has the funding/knowledge/experience/facility/equipment to do it safely - then no worries. It would be interesting to see what happened. But it is absolutely not something that someone who wants to get into solar should try.

BTW the most likely outcome is not "disaster / everyone dies." The most likely outcome is that it won't work. But if you have the $$$, the equipment, the facilities, the knowledge and the experience to do the test and evaluate its effectiveness, go for it. Can you honestly say you have all those things?

[motorcyclemikie]

No worries. This is a good place to come to be less bewildered, but not a good place to come to get your misconceptions reinforced.

And I have never seen a SMA inverter with its Secure Power output wired to house wiring, and a battery put on its input side instead of a solar array. Might that work? Maybe. Why hasn't anyone done that? Because the downsides (potential fire, likely inverter failure, almost certain unhappiness) outweigh the positives (cheap way to get backup solar power.)

If someone wants to do that experiment - AND has the funding/knowledge/experience/facility/equipment to do it safely - then no worries. It would be interesting to see what happened. But it is absolutely not something that someone who wants to get into solar should try.

BTW the most likely outcome is not "disaster / everyone dies." The most likely outcome is that it won't work. But if you have the $$$, the equipment, the facilities, the knowledge and the experience to do the test and evaluate its effectiveness, go for it. Can you honestly say you have all those things?

JF, yeah you know if these didn't play together that would just be the start of it anyway, next you would have to find out why it didn't work and so forth and on and on! I have already assumed this to actually be a null point and a low priority, there are many other things that I feel I can beat a little bit of the price out of, I believe I'll have to let you know if I find this to be true. incidentally if you think I am asking tough questions just wait till you see how tough these building contractors get to be now that it's mandatory for new home builds to include solar energy in California, they are in a very competitive business and do not make any money by giving it away on overpriced equipment

[motorcyclemikie]

And of course you should think about your exit plan for selling those optimizers that work with 3-phase inverters. You're likely to find they don't work, so might as well plan for that up front.

Foo, I have planned for the demise of my PV harvesting venture. I would offer my new under warranty equipment at 50% of retail cost, why would anyone pay $2200 for a SE7600H inverter, when I would ship it to them for half price -- even less, i'll do $1000 to your door. This may come about, I, like others came looking to investigate the feasibility of setting up a PV system whether it is economically and viably practical. I saw the computer industry evolve the way the solar industry is evolving, the purist and engineering groups are being pushed aside by the used car salesman type of groups that reap fat profits off unsuspecting people that just want the product and subsequently they pay for it. this business is evolving very fast particularly since it is mandated on New home builds in California and will be very shortly in the rest of the country that is when the big boys will bring prices down to where they should be, if not the Chinese will come in and cut their legs off if they are not price competitive.

practically speaking I can see the pricing coming down a good 30% within the next year (I am bombarded with prices for new latest technology solar panels for 40 to 50 cents a watt!, how much were they 12 months ago even six months ago), if I wait a year I'll be paying my $100 a month electric bill but I will not have put out the five or six thousand dollars for the system.

This is the question I am asking myself right now at this rate is it financially feasible, it really isn't but I would like to have energy Independence and also see if I can improve my environment.
That is just me, being a engineer, my mind won't let me rest easily

[jflorey2]

if you think I am asking tough questions just wait till you see how tough these building contractors get to be now that it's mandatory for new home builds to include solar energy in California, they are in a very competitive business and do not make any money by giving it away on overpriced equipment

If you think buying cheap equipment saves you money, just wait until 10% of your workforce is out fixing the stuff that failed during the first really hot day.

There are already "cookie cutter" approaches to solar installs. Enphase inverters integrated into existing panels is one. Off the shelf string inverters (like SMA) with series generic panels is another. They are similar in price, and have been done so often that there's plenty of experience out there. As panel prices come down, labor (both initial install and maintenance) will be the factor that separates success from failure; the successful companies will be the ones that can do 2-3 installs a day with a single truck and have almost no callbacks.

[littleharbor]

.

2-3 installs a day with a single truck and have almost no callbacks.

That would be one big a** truck

[motorcyclemikie]

That would be one big a** truck

Or small installations!

JF You are so right about the overhead of poor quality Equipment, particularly when it involves field repair and maintenance

[jflorey2]

That would be one big a** truck

Big a** trailer actually, in the one company I saw at SPI claiming 3 installs in one day.

[ButchDeal]

Big a** trailer actually, in the one company I saw at SPI claiming 3 installs in one day.

likely micros and railless installs and cutting corners like not recording optimizer layout.
We would get applications from lots of installers that work like this. They would say they only do micros, railless and only one PV module model. Everyone gets the same. We tried to work with a few of them and they were terrible. One did two installs yes but didn't follow the drawings at all, put modules on wrong roof faces, one put them on a north face instead of the south face. He tried to tell the customer that we were wrong about the design and he "fixed it". Turns out the south face was too tall for his ladder and he just didn't want to walk over the ridge.

The sad thing is the customer either didn't know about the issues or in the "north face" install case bought the installers line of crap. I caught all of them when I was setting up monitoring the next day and sent the installers out to really fix every install (including the north face). Boy they hate having to supply optimizer or micro layouts after the fact, but not as much as not getting paid.

The point is I believe the "didn't have many call backs right away" as many customers don't know how crappy the service they got was.
Now not all guys doing work like this are the same.

[motorcyclemikie]

So after rereading this thread I feel embarrassed about some of the previous questions that I asked. I have learned a lot since then. I am still happy with my choice to go with solaredge equipment even though I had to enter "advanced DIY" mode to get satisfaction on my questions!

I have come to realize how this absurd turn key pricing structure came about. ONSITE CUSTOMER SUPPORT is not cheap and can make or break a small operator, particularly with high casualty prone equipment. If a PV package charges for that the customer usually wants the support to ensure their investment pays off to the full intended capabilities.

all that being said here's what I have found out so far, with a little bit of online shopping I have found that I can buy the identical same brand new equipment that the big online retailers sell for about a third of their price.

New SE7600H GSM they want $1800 you can find it for $500 to $1000 I got mine for $500.

New SE P600 optimizers they want $89 . . online pricing $35 to $45, I paid $38 each for mine however I use one per every two solar panels ( I don't need the single panel resolution). I really wanted the p505 I just haven't found the correct deal for them yet that is, but they should be about the same price.

I'm shopping for my PV panels at this time, I expect to pay $0.35 a watt for decent panels that match my system needs.

I am still searching for a good group of installers, I live in the sticks so my choices are a little Limited. When I find my installers I will see what racking system they are familiar with and probably go with that, I don't need any problems. the racking price that I got from a big online dealer was $60 per panel, looking around I think that half that price is more than reasonable, I am sure you guys know this I just haven't been able to find this information.

I bought tools, splices ,connectors, and a roll of wire . . . $100

I I am not bragging, these are real today prices if you pay more than that then bless you somebody needs your money.
If you guys are configuring and installing systems and you quote the customer a $1,800 price for the inverter and then go and buy one like I did for $500 and pocket the rest . . . Shame on you, the customer will always find this out and it will get back to you one way or the other


Incidently I bought series 5 European made (not Chinese) P600 optimizers

[foo1bar]

with a little bit of online shopping I have found that I can buy the identical same brand new equipment that the big online retailers sell for about a third of their price.

New SE7600H GSM they want $1800 you can find it for $500 to $1000 I got mine for $500.

From the way you phrase that, I assume you are not buying new.
Which is fine if you're comfortable with that. I wasn't for my own install.
New price that I see for a SE7600H (nonGSM) is $1451 and $1518 (renvu and soligent)

I don't think there is any "big" online retailers for solar equipment.
They all seem to be regional players, focused on installers in their area.

New SE P600 optimizers they want $89 . . online pricing $35 to $45, I paid $38 each for mine however I use one per every two solar panels ( I don't need the single panel resolution). I really wanted the p505 I just haven't found the correct deal for them yet that is, but they should be about the same price.

So I take it that your plan is:
1> buy the P600s,
2> hook them up
3> Find out that they won't communicate with the inverter because they aren't compatible (Solaredge's documentation says they're not compatible) And since they won't communicate most likely they won't do anything other than their default 1V output.
4> buy a new set of optimizers and use those to get your system running
5> sell the P600s? donate them?

Doesn't sound very cost effective to me - but it's your money to do with as you please.

Looks like the P600 are discontinued - so I expect pricing will be all over the place. Some vendors will want to move the stock to get it out of their warehouse, others will see it as a way to ask for more $$$ from those who need a like-for-like replacement for their existing system.

Good luck.

[motorcyclemikie]

From the way you phrase that, I assume you are not buying new.
Which is fine if you're comfortable with that. I wasn't for my own install.

So I take it that your plan is:
1> buy the P600s,
2> hook them up
3> Find out that they won't communicate with the inverter because they aren't compatible (Solaredge's documentation says they're not compatible) And since they won't communicate most likely they won't do anything other than their default 1V output.
4> buy a new set of optimizers and use those to get your system running
5> sell the P600s? donate them?

Doesn't sound very cost effective to me - but it's your money to do with as you please.

Looks like the P600 are discontinued - so I expect pricing will be all over the place. Some vendors will want to move the stock to get it out of their warehouse, others will see it as a way to ask for more $$$ from those who need a like-for-like replacement for their existing system.

Good luck.

Yeah, the SE7600H GSM is new, I bought the European manufactured P600 optimizers (date code indicates series 5) already.

You left out step 3.5

3.5> Disable the Safe-v feature (SE1000-key) and if still not working trade the p600's for p505's. Document my findings as "tried and known" so others will know the results firsthand.


That is the plan! The p505 optimizers are basically the same as the P600, with a few electrical parameters that really are outside of my needed criteria

I am not going to lose any sleep if they (P600) do not work the way I would like them to, but I will lose sleep if the p505's don't work the way that solaredge says and that includes operating them two panels in a Serial Fashion on one optimizer.

If that all fails then the next option is to spend another $500 on 12 more p505, that's 24 Total 1 per panel


one of solar edges app Notes specifically talks about installing two panels per one Optimizer to cut the BOS cost virtually in half. The increased reliability of the resulting system with fewer components and much fewer connectors would undoubtably be a serious advantage

[ButchDeal]

3.5> Disable the Safe-v feature (SE1000-key)

You are talking about disabling the solaredge inverter capability so that the optimizers will work with non-solaredge inverters. I don't know why you think this will make them compatible with the residential inverters. What it will do is make them incompatible with solaredge inverters.

The SE1000-Key is no longer supported by SolarEdge and only worked with a limited set of optimizers, most of which are not made any more. The ones that it still works with are the ones that are built into PV modules.

From the manual

SafeDC Disabled: When the power optimizer is connected to a PV module, its output voltage is limited to the open circuit voltage (Voc) of the connected PV module.

The optimizer will no longer be able to alter the output voltage which means it will not maintain the voltage that the SolarEdge inverter needs to operate....

That is the plan! The p505 optimizers are basically the same as the P600, with a few electrical parameters that really are outside of my needed criteria

The P600 has very little in common with the P505. They have ONE spec that is the same, does not make them "basically" the same!
Again you can do your own experimenting but stop spitting out your ill-informed guesses as gospel