Grid-Tie without netmetering

[ButchDeal]

in PGE you trade kwh at a similar rate to avoid any commerce. There is still no money transaction.

The end of year true up is taxable and should be self reported.

[progro]

I think organic farmer was referring to a install done by one of the big players. I actually looked into Solar City when I was jumped on one of their reps during a Home Depot visit. The problem with these installs is that when you lease you have the monthly payment of that and you're stuck with a multi-year lease. Try selling your home with that attached to it as a lien holder. You either have to buy out the lease of the equipment or transfer the lease to the prospective buyer - good luck with that.

Really the question is what happens when the federal tax credit runs out? A lot of states have already exhausted their credits and what happens in 2020 when the tax credit is gone? I don't see POCO's pushing for it.

Here's a good article re: Solar City
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/21/chano...elon-musk.html

[progro]

I think Organic Farmer is referring to the installs done by one of the major players. Those installs are a complete rip off that are leased. It sounds good
on paper until you try to sell your home and you either have to buy out the lease or try to get the prospective buyer to assume the lease.

The other thing with these solar companies what happens when the government subsidy runs out? I don't see anyone buying solar because of the upfront cost.

Good article by a legendary financial short sider:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-04/jim-chanos-short-solarcity-next-sunedison-full-bear-case

[Engineer]

You trade kwh, not money, thus no taxes on it.

Technically in Ca with PGE you do trade dollars as you buy and sell at the then current rate. So I generate at peak and get over twice what its worth when I use it off peak. And yes, if after a year I'm a net generator I do get a check at market rates, about 4 cents/kWh. If that happens presumably its taxable.

[Engineer]

I don't see why anybody wouldn't want to net meter. At least in California it's a steal. With TOU I'm selling to the POCO at peak rates (in summer) of about 35 cents/kWh, then I'm using that later at a rate os 15 cents, more than a two for one.

However I doubt as some have said that you actually pay for backfed power, certainly not with PGE. Most places it just should just count as nil. Before my inspection and the POCO signed off I was back feeding power for a week or so initially, I just didn't get anything for it (so I ran the oven and the AC simultaneously, and every computer I have )

[Sunking]

I could have gone net-metering, but it would have cost us a lot more to do so.

Among all the homes in our town that are using solar or wind power the most expensive system is the one net-metering system.

That is pure BS, even a kid can figure that is a big fat lie.

[progro]

Thanks foo1bar, I've done 3 off-grid systems with a battery bank of 10 L16 batteries with an Magnasine inverter/charger and 4.5KHw so
my installation will initially consist of 6 Helis 260watt panels and I'm still debating the type of inverter whether I go with a Sunny Boy or a Enphase.

I agree that to do it properly its a lot of work as I've done with 3 off-grid systems in the Vermont/NH area (all inspected/passed) it is a ton of work but to comment from another poster it is sort of a hobby for me. As I stated from day one I would have it inspected by my local town after I pull a permit. I've
never done a grid-tie system so wanted to get some opinions.

Another option I've been looking at is the Grid Zero systems from Outback. From what I've read, Any excess power that I generate
would be off-loaded to the battery bank? That is intriguing to me since I do cyber security and my multiple computer systems are on
24 x 7. They would power a Aims Inverter with a dedicated 20AMP circuit to my home office. A bank of L16 AGM's will give me
more backup time than any UPS system at a fraction of the cost not to mention the Aims can signal the generator to start automatically.

Although, I don't want to rely on another company's algorithm in case it does export to the grid.

[ButchDeal]

You will always be paying the lease though. If you purchase you will have a car at the end with no lease that can either be driven or traded. With a lease you have nothing at the end.

[foo1bar]

Hi bryankloos. I am a eversource customer in the Hartford area. Would love to talk to you. The net metering application I've reviewed is simple enough but want to know if a diy'er with the proper permits can get approved. I've heard from installers that my chances are slim to none and wanted to talk to someone before I go down this road. I did hear from customer service at ever source that I may not get approval for a while since they're "backed up in the queue"

I'm looking to see what's true and what's not.

My installation is very easy and straightforward so would love to hear your experiences with eversource.

Thanks!

I wouldn't take the word of an installer about it.

I would ask the POCO - ie "If I do an install that's permitted and inspected by Hartford, what additional requirements are required by Eversource?"

As the owner (and resident) of the property you ARE allowed to get a permit yourself in Hartford:
http://www.hartford.gov/licenses-and...0-buildingfaqs

*HOWEVER*

Doing a solar installation is NOT an easy thing to do properly.
If you're not comfortable with electrical work, it's probably not a DIY job.
Even if you're comfortable with electrical work, it's a very specialized job - so you do have some learning to do if you want to do a DIY install.
(it's not insurmountable for someone capable of doing their own electrical work - but it IS a fair amount of learning and work)

[foo1bar]

Both the utility and the town would almost surely have to approve the installation with signoff by a licensed electrician.

A proper installation MAY require a licensed electrician - it depends on the location.
In many locations (like mine) you can do the installation as the owner of the property.
But you still have to do the permit and still have to have it inspected. (and as owner obviously you want to make sure it's done properly and safely)

In other locations a licensed electrician is required.

IMO the best way to find out is to talk to the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) and the POCO.

[foo1bar]

In the majority of this state, some home designs may need a permit, some homes do not need a permit. No home needs an inspector.

That varies GREATLY from location to location.

In my location, EVERY electrical change that requires a permit requires an inspection.

[silversaver]

That specific system that Ian leased was a some25at unique offering with special buyout terms due to some favorable legislation that allowed for very early depreciation on the leased equipment. I believe Sunpower was the only company to take advantage of it and expired soon after Ian signed on.

Actually I have seen one of my customer's one pay solar lease contract (25yrs) almost same as cash purchase after Fed incentive, which I believe was a good buy.

[silversaver]

I have yet to see a car lease that really saves you money then just outright purchasing the vehicle unless you can wright off the expenses.

True some solar leases might be cost effective but isn't a prepaid lease similar to just purchasing a system up from?

If the lease requires you to pay a monthly fee based on an your kWh usage but there is an assumed kWh escalation rate of ~ 3% that is built into the lease then I would say you have been swindled and are not saving anywhere near as much as if you had purchased the system outright.

I haven't purchase but lease cars for the last 18yrs, it is much cheaper than buying the cars. I guess it depends what make/model you are comparing with. For Toyota, you are better off buying it because the lease program isn't attractive at all. I can pay a lease payment of Toyota and drive a Mercedes Benz.

As I mention Ian S, he got a really good deal on his single payment solar. For some re-tired people, they might prefer single pay lease if the deal were same as cash purchase because they cannot utilize the Fed Incentive.

[cebury]

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

That specific system that Ian leased was a some25at unique offering with special buyout terms due to some favorable legislation that allowed for very early depreciation on the leased equipment. I believe Sunpower was the only company to take advantage of it and expired soon after Ian signed on.

[silversaver]

Hold on a second.

Our Poco does not pay money for power put onto the grid. If you net-meter you are billed for the taxes on the power you generate, and you are billed for the transmission fees for the power that you generate.

Plus as a completely separate issue, you also pay the lease fees.

Our neighbor who net-meters pay a lease that is equal to their previous average Poco bills, and they also pay a Poco bill. Every month they are paying out more for electricity than they were paying before.

Also as a completely separate issue, the total expense for their system is more than for any of the off-grid systems in our town [not talking finance or lease fees].

Wait a min. This explain why you against net metering.

As I recall sometimes a year or two ago, a forum member from small town in CA mention about his net metering with small local POCO...... POCO pays him whole sale rate for the excessive power to the grid and charges him high base metering fee.