Grid-Tie without netmetering

[NYHeel]

All leases have a "residual value amount" that is factored into the lease prices. So if a Toyota is more reliable, it will have lower lease payments as a result.

The only reason to lease is if you are a business owner and can benefit from the tax deduction. And even then, it is only a maybe on leasing.

Please give one example with a new car right now, even including any incentives, where it is a better deal for a non-business-owner to lease than buy. You won't be able to find one. Once you give your example, I will show you how you can buy the car for the same or a lower cost of ownership over any number of years.

I'll bite. I leased a Honda Pilot EX-L for $390 a month, including tax 3 years ago. The car would have cost me about $36,000-37,000 to buy without tax. Same goes for a Nissan Pathfinder SL I just leased. At that price, it would have taken me almost 10 years to pay off the car at 4% interest. The only thing I put down besides for registration and plates (which would be the same for a purchased new car) is a $700 bank fee. But that is much less than 7% sales tax on the $37k car even when factoring in incentives. Add in maintenance and inevitable out of warranty repair costs and it's a pretty close side by side comparison. But now add in the value of driving a new car every 3 years.

Another example, I can lease a Honda Accord LX for about $200 a month (maybe $210-$220 if leasing at a suboptimal time). That's a $21,000 car at invoice. Even without including the sales tax it would take over 10 years at $210 a month to cover the $21,000 cost at 4%.

Now I agree that walking into a dealership and leasing is terrible and you get ripped off. I personally use leasing brokers. There are many of them in my area. You call them and they give you a price. Done. And it's a better price than you can get in a dealership 95 out of 100 times. Hassle free. You just need to be flexible and go with cars that are leasing well currently. Typically Hondas, Toyotas and Nisssans lease really well but it can vary by model year. For example, I switched to Pathfinder from a Pilot because the Pilot is new this year and leasing was a disaster. Would have cost me over $500 a month for an EX-L which cost me $390 3 years ago.

[SunEagle]

I'd rather suggest you get a technician to help you out in such a case. Reason being, while you may get tons of advice on this forum, the authenticity of the person giving that advice will be rather unknown. So well, yeah..

I agree. Most of us have pointed out that whatever a forum member provides here concerning solar installations the best source of getting the right answer would be from a local inspector and contractor.

[nupur]

I'd rather suggest you get a technician to help you out in such a case. Reason being, while you may get tons of advice on this forum, the authenticity of the person giving that advice will be rather unknown. So well, yeah..

[rsilvers]

For Toyota, buying will be the right choice since the depreciation and maintenance were much cheaper comparing with European cars. I do not drive Toyota or domestic vehicles, so buying route isn't working for me. That really have to do with personal preference.

All leases have a "residual value amount" that is factored into the lease prices. So if a Toyota is more reliable, it will have lower lease payments as a result.

The only reason to lease is if you are a business owner and can benefit from the tax deduction. And even then, it is only a maybe on leasing.

Please give one example with a new car right now, even including any incentives, where it is a better deal for a non-business-owner to lease than buy. You won't be able to find one. Once you give your example, I will show you how you can buy the car for the same or a lower cost of ownership over any number of years.

[rsilvers]

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

I suppose it depends on your state incentives. In MA you can get a solar loan for 1.5-3.5% and so leasing *NEVER* is a good option (but yet 90% of people do a lease of PPA in MA). Meaning, if you leased, you just told the world you have no idea what you are doing. Plus there is the issue with you can't sell your house for 20 years unless you either buy out the lease for too-high a price (sometimes more as if you had just purchased to begin with), or convince the potential buyer to submit to a credit check during the delicate negotiation period for selling your house. Very bad to have to ask a potential buyer to do things when you are trying to get them to pay a lot.

As for car leases - I did the math once. First, the dealer will ask you first thing if you will buy or lease the car. Never say lease. Always say buy. Then negotiate a price. Then at the last minute, change to a lease if you want. This will allow the principe lease amount to be based on the lower price you negotiated rather than the sticker price. The reason why they ask up front if you will lease is that they know they can try to raise the price. Just note that if you do lease, you will end up with about the same deal as if you bought a car and later traded it in. Personally, I don't trade in cars, as I would rather get thousands more by selling it privately. But, trading in a car reduces your sales-tax load, so you have to factor that in. In some cases it may be worth it.

That all being said, leasing is a no-brainer for a business because you can tax deduct it all rather than a purchase which has to be depreciated.

[SunEagle]

But I use about 45kWh per day and my bills are averaging $200 /mth. Yet solar is more than a 10 year payback for me.

Also the majority of our generated power comes from Natural gas followed by Coal, followed by Nuclear, followed by all RE (which is a very small percentage). Yet my rates are less than $0.10/kWh for the first 1000kWh and about $0.12/kWh for anything after the first 1000kWh.

So even though I would like to see more solar, my electricity would probably be more expensive going with more RE then staying were we are?

[ButchDeal]

No my point isn't biased. it is based on math. Yes people still choose to use a lease based on other things, not on finances. Math is not biased, it just IS.

[Engineer]

It depends on how you want to look at it I guess. Ca is priced so that if you use 20kWh/day you don't pay too much. 30 kWh/day is the US average, which is what we used and put us into the bad guy Tier 4 rates, which are at the marginal rate almost double the baseline. Any extra usage above that (e.g. EV, AC, induction cooking) is at the marginal rate so your electricity bill skyrockets. With increased usage as mentioned my bill went to around $600, so figure a $20k-$30k system that's a 3-4 year payback, not including the time value of money of the capital sunk in the solar.

So PGE encourages the use of gas which is cheaper. Bu our electricity is generated from gas, wtf? Anyhow thankfully we lead the nation (or something) in renewables. On the weekend on a sunny day half the generation in Ca is due to them.

[SunEagle]

Electricity rates are so ruinous in Ca that my system pays for itself in 3 years! Leasing makes little sense with that kind of payback. It's so good I'm expanding it to a 10kW system.

I am glad someone is getting their money back using solar. But I hate to see the reason is because the electric rates are so much higher then the rest of the US.

[Engineer]

I understand. Each of us has a different justification to what they like to do.

Electricity rates are so ruinous in Ca that my system pays for itself in 3 years! Leasing makes little sense with that kind of payback. It's so good I'm expanding it to a 10kW system.

[SunEagle]

Well if that money was from your parents then I would say it is cheaper. LOL.

[silversaver]

Your comment is very bias. People make different decision based on different situations with different options. Matter of choice.

[azdave]

Leasing may get you some benefits that you prefer over owning but whether it's cars or solar panels, when is it ever cheaper to use someone else's money?

[ButchDeal]

yes cars depreciate over time, makes no difference to the point. The company that is leasing you the car is making all the money from you, then sells the car after you return it for more profit. You then lease another car, which they sell for profit. Had you purchased the first car, you could trade it in on the next car. You are keeping the value that the lease company is gaining...
Depreciation, brand, none of that matters to the point. If the lease company doesn't make any money then your point might be correct but pretty sure the lease company is making lots of money.

[SunEagle]

For Toyota, buying will be the right choice since the depreciation and maintenance were much cheaper comparing with European cars. I do not drive Toyota or domestic vehicles, so buying route isn't working for me. That really have to do with personal preference.

I understand. Each of us has a different justification to what they like to do.