Grid-Tie without netmetering

[organic farmer]

I never said installing a leased pv system would save you money. It is the sales people convince the homeowner that going with a lease is the best way. IMO it will not really save you money in the long run but may make you feel part of the green team because you now have solar without having to drain your bank account.

Just like a lot of car salespeople. They push the lease option to get someone to spend their money. A car lease is much more expensive for a person that can't write it off as a business expense.

I agree.

[SunEagle]

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

I have yet to see a car lease that really saves you money then just outright purchasing the vehicle unless you can wright off the expenses.

True some solar leases might be cost effective but isn't a prepaid lease similar to just purchasing a system up from?

If the lease requires you to pay a monthly fee based on an your kWh usage but there is an assumed kWh escalation rate of ~ 3% that is built into the lease then I would say you have been swindled and are not saving anywhere near as much as if you had purchased the system outright.

[organic farmer]

With respect to the neighbor, their issue is with the high cost monthly lease which has nothing directly to do with net metering.

Net-metering has nothing to do with net-metering ???

Aye aye mate.

[organic farmer]

That neighbor of yours had made a real bad decision on his or her solar, and hopefully he or she did not care about the money when contract were signed. (usually not the case)

In leases, the total payment after 20yrs are always higher than cash purchases. If his or her monthly payment is even higher than without solar, then they are the ones believe solar is free and like to see low payment without facing the reality.

I agree.

Though I did not say a word about their financing or payment plan.

That would be off-topic.

[organic farmer]

... You are talking about financing not net metering here.

"... their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town. ..."

Read that again. I am not saying a word about the financing part.

Their system's expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town, regardless of financing.

... Bull sh!t. Net metering when available is 100% efficient and best ROI. batteries are NOT.

My system has grid power coming into the one AC port on the inverter too but I use net metering and only use batteries when grid is down. Much more efficient than cycling the batteries.

I have no idea of what I said that you think is BS. You did not address anything I said

What I said is 100% truthful.

... The point of this thread is not about on grid VS OFF grid, but about net metering without valid paperwork, which is can get you all kinds of fines.

I am tied to the grid. I am not net-metering.

[silversaver]

I never said installing a leased pv system would save you money. It is the sales people convince the homeowner that going with a lease is the best way. IMO it will not really save you money in the long run but may make you feel part of the green team because you now have solar without having to drain your bank account.

Just like a lot of car salespeople. They push the lease option to get someone to spend their money. A car lease is much more expensive for a person that can't write it off as a business expense.

I have to disagree with you on the car leases. I guess you are generalizing the car lease as costly expense which isn't true. Solar lease can be a good option; for example, our forum member Ian S has great pre-paid lease on his SP system.

[SunEagle]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

I never said installing a leased pv system would save you money. It is the sales people convince the homeowner that going with a lease is the best way. IMO it will not really save you money in the long run but may make you feel part of the green team because you now have solar without having to drain your bank account.

Just like a lot of car salespeople. They push the lease option to get someone to spend their money. A car lease is much more expensive for a person that can't write it off as a business expense.

[Ian S]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

I'd love to see the numbers on an off-grid system having less "over all system expense" than a comparably sized grid-tied system with net metering. The periodic battery replacement costs alone are a huge expense that you don't have when on the grid.

With respect to the neighbor, their issue is with the high cost monthly lease which has nothing directly to do with net metering. Unless electricity is very cheap and/or solar insolation is poor, someone with a purchased grid-tied system and true net metering - or something even approximating it - can save a significant amount of money over the life of the system. Going off-grid and supporting a "normal" US lifestyle is almost always a bad proposition from a financial standpoint - far better to stay connected to the grid. By the end of the summer, my grid-tied system (prepaid lease) will be fully paid for; that would be hard to do off-grid, I suspect.

[silversaver]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

That neighbor of yours had made a real bad decision on his or her solar, and hopefully he or she did not care about the money when contract were signed. (usually not the case)

In leases, the total payment after 20yrs are always higher than cash purchases. If his or her monthly payment is even higher than without solar, then they are the ones believe solar is free and like to see low payment without facing the reality.

In general, grid-tied is always cheaper than off-grid or others if you make the right decision at time of purchase.

[progro]

Thanks organic farmer, you're validating what I suspected. I'll be interested in what another member's experience has been dealing with the local
power company here.

[Sunking]

Ditto Butch, great response. Organic Farmer is blinded by Green Sun Glasses and cannot see the facts and does not understands the physics.

[ButchDeal]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

You are talking about financing not net metering here.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

very simple systems have very little power production. Yes are cheap but they also produce little power. Like saying a moped is more efficient than a bus.
Sure as long as you are only carrying one person. Try to move 50 and the bus is more efficient.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

Bull sh!t. Net metering when available is 100% efficient and best ROI. batteries are NOT.

My system has grid power coming into the one AC port on the inverter too but I use net metering and only use batteries when grid is down. Much more efficient than cycling the batteries.


The point of this thread is not about on grid VS OFF grid, but about net metering without valid paperwork, which is can get you all kinds of fines.

[organic farmer]

One of my neighbors is grid-tied net-metering. I am not impressed. Their system is a 20-year leased setup. Their monthly expense is higher now than it was before it was installed. And their over all system expense is more than any of the off-grid systems in our town.

We have a neighbor who has been off-grid since the mid-1980s, a very simple system.

My system has grid-power coming into the E-panel as the 'aux' input. Which is great for the second day of cloudy skies.

There are a lot of different options for how we can use: solar power, wind power, grid power. You can do all of these for a lot less expenditure than the net-metering expense.

[SunEagle]

A guerrilla install is also one that does not conform to rules and practices. If gorilla is a valid use as in "looks like a monkey did it", it probably evolved from a misunderstanding of the former.

There are many ways to describe a DIY installation that does not meet any code and breaks the rules. I have use the term "Barnyard Engineer" in the past but have actually found some farmers doing a real nice safe job with their DIY installations. So while "guerrilla" or "gorilla" or "hacker" or some other derogatory name can be used for similar installations that can be very unsafe they all mean roughly the same thing.

[sunnyguy]

Obvisiouly you or the OP are not in the profession. In the Skilled Trades sector like Plumbers and Electricians have to be liscensed. A Gorilla Install is slang for a Hack who does not conform to codes and safe practices. Sames as a trained Monkey could do.

A guerrilla install is also one that does not conform to rules and practices. If gorilla is a valid use as in "looks like a monkey did it", it probably evolved from a misunderstanding of the former.