Questions about new system under production

[Markinphoenix]

One more

[inetdog]

Except for the 345W panels, everywhere you have written kW or W you really mean kWh or Wh.
The difference is important.

And

There site says take the TOTAL KW used, divide by 365 days, then that answer divided by advertised panel output and that will give you the number of panels needed.

only makes sense if the advertised panel output is given in kWh (total energy per day, which is a lot more in summer than in winter) rather than kW (just the sum of the panel wattage numbers).
Somewhere there has to be a conversion between panel power (345 nominal) and panel energy output per day. The 345w nominal panels might produce 300 at solar noon on a great day. And with the equivalent of two hours of full sun during the depth of winter that would be ~600Wh per panel.

[Markinphoenix]

I will check sunpower website and copy and paste what they say and I will check my lease and see in the exact wording. Like I said this is all new to me and unfortunately there was presented very poorly and my lack of in-depth knowledge makes it very difficult to understand just how badly I got screwed. I have a doctor appointment to go to I will try and get it straightened out this afternoon thank you

[sunnyguy]

Of course that is reprehensible if the salesman deliberately misled you to believe you would save more than $1000 per year. If that were true for leases, solar would probably be on every single house. Unfortunately he will claim it is all there in black and white in the contract and you must have misunderstood. But I hope you can work something out.

[FFE]

Now SunPower is saying $6000? (Sigh)

That number looks reasonable. $25 per month is still better than nothing. You might do better than that for a few reasons. If 2016 will be your first summer with the new AC you might save a bunch right there combined with the solar.

You used 581kWh less for your last 3 billing cycles. There must have been something that changed at your house. Less people living there, no longer use pool/spa pump or heater, replaced fridge, replaced TV's, replaced dishwasher, replaced clothes dryer (assuming it is electric like 90% of the ones in Phoenix). If none of those then maybe your new heater/AC unit has a super efficient fan and is saving you 6 kWh per day (unlikely).

Also, not sure how your lease is written but I am sure that electric rates will increase in the future and if your lease is fixed....

[Markinphoenix]

I get my next bill tomorrow, ill set up an appt then. To be blunt, I don't see how anyone can sell leases or even take a crap shoot guess how any system will work due to all the variables. SP's quickly panel figure makes no sense. My panels are rated at 345 (watts per hour ?) but they dont work 24/7. Maybe I'll call sunPower and see what they say. Or APS? This whole thing has been the business deal from hell that im stuck with for 20 years and everyone else gets to walk away from laughing. But i have NO problem flaming Harmon with the BBB and registrar of contractors if this system proves to be a turd! I also have no problem putting up a 4 by 8 sign in my yard either!
And as pointed out earlier, APS's math makes no sense either. The deck is stacked against the end user for sure! But im stuck and no one seems to be able to give me any idea if I'll even break even in December or not, let alone save anything. The longer this sucks up my time, the angrier I get at the POS salesman Tom Hayes! He just flat needs a new job! He would fit right in at Vivant selling their junk systems. Or at the county fair telling fortunes! Ive been patient now since August LAST YEAR but im about done.

[Markinphoenix]

I pulled up my 18 page lease and here is one screen shot about "performance ESTIMATES" But the entire binding lease was built on flat rate equilizer payments and NOT on the new "time of use" variable BS that I got switched to when commissioned.
I need 16,223 just to meet 2015 usage, but all its expected to make is 10,000??? Estimated MAX system production is 5.8kwh but im only guaranteed 2.7???? WTF!! Even the lease was built on a house of cards and I still remember Mr. Hayes's words as he sat in our living room sipping tea and telling us about his mentally ill ex wife that he wished would just finally kill herself and get it over with...."Mark, trust me, it will work"!!! What a line of ****!

So if anyone has any idea how to interpret my needed usage of 16,223 and panels that produce 345 whatevers, please let me know if 18 panels will work. So far, NO ONE says it will, except Harmon. Yea, like I believe them anymore! My 73 year old friend who had Mr. Hayes do his too, has LESS of a monthly demand than mine, but got 32 panels! Yes, south facing, same city, same sun, same exact panels, even the same install crew!

[ButchDeal]

So if anyone has any idea how to interpret my needed usage of 16,223 and panels that produce 345 whatevers, please let me know if 18 panels will work. So far, NO ONE says it will, except Harmon. Yea, like I believe them anymore! My 73 year old friend who had Mr. Hayes do his too, has LESS of a monthly demand than mine, but got 32 panels! Yes, south facing, same city, same sun, same exact panels, even the same install crew!

Look at the last line on the left.... Estimated offset = 67%
This lease is set up to offset 67% of your electric usage. The problem seems to be that you want 100% offset but either it will not fit, or you can not afford it, but they gave you a lease for 67% offset.

[FFE]

It looks like the salesman told you what you will save, then had you sign a document that states that you will save $30.30 per month the first year. It is not even in the fine print. It is just at the end of a long list of numbers and easy to miss. I am not sure a verbal contract is binding, but if he stated that you will save $1,000 per year then had you sign for $363.60 for the first year....

You have panels rated at 327 watts per panel under ideal conditions. Not sure where 345 is coming from. The 327 is kind of like amount of watts each panel produces in real life about once or twice per year under ideal conditions. Most of the time they will produce close to that amount on a clear day at noon in the spring. Your friend might have 32 panels but they might be lower wattage and might cover 100% of usage.

If I were you, I would would wait till you see what happens this summer. Again, if this will be your first summer with the new AC, you may see closer to the $1,000 savings instead of the $363.

[Markinphoenix]

Thanks Butchdeal. I NOW understand the 67% but AS ORIGINALLY PRESENTED, the "over production and banking" will cover the other 23%. It was all just BS!

I have room for 50 more if I could afford it. I'm paying $96 a month for 18 panels, my friend is paying $146 ( if my memory is correct) for 32!

I just had a great conversation with a rep from APS, my local provider. I've spoken with her 3 time now and am impressed with her grasp and ability to explain it all to me now that im on the time of use plan and NOT on the flat rate equalizer anymore.

The bottom line according to APS.....in the WINTER months, my system will keep up and bank a VERY VERY modest on-peak amount of electricity.
During the SUMMER months, ( 5 months to be exact, based on last years usage) I'll be needing way more than I'm banking. WAY more.

According to her figures, I NEED a 9-11 thousand KW system to break even, as in not OWE anything over the entire year. Not going to happen, in her opinion.
I have a 5.8 kw system @18 panels and that leaves me, roughly speaking, 5 kw short!
I need another 5 kw.
According to her figures and all things considered, I should have gotten between 34-36 panels, based on last years usage. Granted, my usage is down and using that information, she still says all things considered, 18 will NOT, NO WAY, EVER SAVE ME MONEY, but i'll probably end up, lease payment included, paying about $1,500- $3,000 MORE at the end of the year than if i'd stayed on flat rate, no solar.

So now comes my problem. Fight for more panels and have to pay more per month to SunPower? Hire a lawyer and fight this POS lease? Bite the bullet and just admit we got thoroughly reemed by Harmon Solar and walk off into the sunset?

Walking is not an option anymore. I guess the battle will begin, starting with the BBB and then to the Corp Commission! Harmon has a great rep "so far" but if' the likes of Mr. Hayes is the new "slam and go" BS sales model, i'll guess Harmons rep is going in the toilet fast as more get into the same mess i'm in.

Had I have known BACK THEN, just half of what I know now, i'd have kicked Mr. Hayes butt into the street and been done with it! It just sucks.

[ButchDeal]

Thanks Butchdeal. I NOW understand the 67% but AS ORIGINALLY PRESENTED, the "over production and banking" will cover the other 23%. It was all just BS!

I have room for 50 more if I could afford it. I'm paying $96 a month for 18 panels, my friend is paying $146 ( if my memory is correct) for 32!

I just had a great conversation with a rep from APS, my local provider. I've spoken with her 3 time now and am impressed with her grasp and ability to explain it all to me now that im on the time of use plan and NOT on the flat rate equalizer anymore.

The bottom line according to APS.....in the WINTER months, my system will keep up and bank a VERY VERY modest on-peak amount of electricity.
During the SUMMER months, ( 5 months to be exact, based on last years usage) I'll be needing way more than I'm banking. WAY more.

According to her figures, I NEED a 9-11 thousand KW system to break even, as in not OWE anything over the entire year. Not going to happen, in her opinion.
I have a 5.8 kw system @18 panels and that leaves me, roughly speaking, 5 kw short!
I need another 5 kw.
According to her figures and all things considered, I should have gotten between 34-36 panels, based on last years usage. Granted, my usage is down and using that information, she still says all things considered, 18 will NOT, NO WAY, EVER SAVE ME MONEY, but i'll probably end up, lease payment included, paying about $1,500- $3,000 MORE at the end of the year than if i'd stayed on flat rate, no solar.

So now comes my problem. Fight for more panels and have to pay more per month to SunPower? Hire a lawyer and fight this POS lease? Bite the bullet and just admit we got thoroughly reemed by Harmon Solar and walk off into the sunset?

Walking is not an option anymore. I guess the battle will begin, starting with the BBB and then to the Corp Commission! Harmon has a great rep "so far" but if' the likes of Mr. Hayes is the new "slam and go" BS sales model, i'll guess Harmons rep is going in the toilet fast as more get into the same mess i'm in.

Had I have known BACK THEN, just half of what I know now, i'd have kicked Mr. Hayes butt into the street and been done with it! It just sucks.

I am sorry that your installer communicted things poorly like that. The over production does not help it get to 100%. over production during one time vs another allows it to get to the 67%
"9-11 thousand KW " I think you mean a 9 to 11 kw not 9 - 11 MW

[Markinphoenix]

Yes, I did not mean 9-11 kwh, but 9 - 11 watt (9,000 - 11,000 WATT) system.
I now understand that my "banked ON-PEAK Can ONLY be used against ON-PEAK need.
My off-peak is an "I will owe APS FOREVER" cost of non-solar electricity. Right now, i'm paying about $20 -$25 a month for just electricity at night. Come summer with A/C on,,, $100??? Plus my $96 to SP plus my approx. $50 - $200 SHORTFALL on the 18 panels???? Crap! Time to refy the house!
I've sent Harmon my findings but expect nothing in reality. BBB and Corp Commission are next and maybe a few news help segments too. I sick and tired of being messed with and lied to, at our expense.

[sunnyguy]

Wait so your equalizer payments were $242/mo for a total of $2900/yr? If so you were paying $0.18/kWh. Did you ever use the "compare rate plans" feature on the APS website?

The most important thing with solar on the time of use plan is to conserve energy between 12pm-7pm so you can use it for a/c.

[Markinphoenix]

Wait so your equalizer payments were $242/mo for a total of $2900/yr? If so you were paying $0.18/kWh. Did you ever use the "compare rate plans" feature on the APS website?

The most important thing with solar on the time of use plan is to conserve energy between 12pm-7pm so you can use it for a/c.

Good morning!
Time of use for me, is not really of any advantage. With the exception of my A/C, fridg and freezer, everything else is gas. Im home all day, my wife still works to keep her insurance. I have my shop that im in at times that has a 1 1/2 ton A/C and evap and all my woodworking equipment. im not in there much anymore.
According to APS, if i had the proper amount of panels, i would be better suited to switch back to a flat rate plan in December, then i could use some of my "banked credit" to pay for my nighttime use. Thats how it was originally presented, understood and my lease reflects that fact too.

My system is over producing during the day but not near enough to cover "on peak" demand of summerA/C usage. When presented 7 months ago, time of use was no where in any conversation, it was all flat pricing 24/7, banking was a sure thing and would pay for night time usage. On the "time of use," plan, with being near 12 to 16 panels undersized,, that will never happen.

And as of yesterday, i have a better understandind of "on peak" and "off peak." As it was layed out to me, on peak credits can only be used for on peak need/shortfall. Off peak CANNOT be paid for with " on peak" credit." Two totally different animals that will never meet.

Im now wondering if the mystery number of "67%" is a fairly good average of my "bankable onpeak" usage vs my total usage? I think it very well may be and that would further explain why shooting for more production would not help since " off peak" cannot/will not ever be paid by "on peak" credits. What a convoluted mess! LoL
So if im correct, 67% of my total usage is during sun time, 33% is at night, no sun. At 5AM half asleep in a restaurant, that seems to maybe make sense. And s great Bob Seager song just came on in here! Ah, to be young again! LoL

Anyway, 2 eggs over. Hash browns and bacon are on the way.
Mark

[Markinphoenix]

Yum, time to head home!