Anyone keeping an ear on Tesla today?

[donald]

Actually, the Warranty has fine print, and in the fine print, is the Givith and Takeith away parts. It likely has a data logger too, since it's got to have thermal management smarts. And somewhere is a DC-Dc converter, does it manage the 400VDC pack voltage to 50V for off grid or what. But it's the data logging that will get 'ya, because it will count the 100%-0% excursions and the ones in-between, and they will get you for the pro-rating and service call labor. (well, that's the way everyone else does warranty).
Even 10Kw is barely enough for a very small, efficient off grid house, I generally burn 7Kwh in the winter and 12Kwh (adding the water pumps) in the summer. So the 10Kw may just hold me overnight, but when Joe suburb homeowner has a grid failure and his air conditioned spa shuts off 3 hours later, he's not going to be happy with his Tesla battery.

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...r-10kwh-units/

Thanks for the link. You would need two 7kwh systems. The 10 kwh only rated at a weekly duty cycle.

The warranty has to be pro rated. I think perhaps a big question is how capacity falls off as it ages.

[SmartElectric]

safe to assume that the price per KW for utilities is lower than the $300/KW they're charging for the residential systems At $300/KW for utility-scale batteries, there's studies for California and Texas that show batteries are a cheaper alternative to building gas-fired peakers.

You are right, the Tesla Powerpack utility sized system is less than $300.
Must tweeted $250/kWh today:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/594186544174366720

[SmartElectric]

10Kw is barely enough for a very small, efficient off grid house, I generally burn 7Kwh in the winter and 12Kwh (adding the water pumps) in the summer. So the 10Kw may just hold me overnight, but when Joe suburb homeowner has a grid failure and his air conditioned spa shuts off 3 hours later, he's not going to be happy with his Tesla battery

The Powerwall can be combined as per:

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Multiple batteries may be installed together for homes with greater energy need, up to 90 kWh total for the 10 kWh battery and 63 kWh total for the 7 kWh battery.

[Sunking]

The Powerwall can be combined as per:
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

So what. Any battery can be cascaded.

[SmartElectric]

So what. Any battery can be cascaded.

I was directly responding to "10 kWh is not enough". Obviously. I even directly quoted the post. Perhaps I need to type in larger font size for you? Or a prettier color perhaps?

[Sunking]

I am typing slowly for you to understand. Any battery can be cascaded. That is not a selling point, just blather.

[donald]

Tesla also announced utility-scale battery systems, so yes, apparently someone did think of this.

They didn't give pricing for the utility systems, but it's probably safe to assume that the price per KW for utilities is lower than the $300/KW they're charging for the residential systems.

At $300/KW for utility-scale batteries, there's studies for California and Texas that show batteries are a cheaper alternative to building gas-fired peakers.

Peakers make power. Batteries transfer power across time.
A fair comparison needs to include the cost of making the power to put in the battery, as well and the efficiency loss of moving electricity it in and out.

There are plenty of places where cheap batteries create value. Especially if the cost of adding carbon to the environment is included, and the true cost of nuclear is calculated. All comparisons should be inclusive, not just the ones supporting ones preference.

[pleppik]

Peakers make power. Batteries transfer power across time.
A fair comparison needs to include the cost of making the power to put in the battery, as well and the efficiency loss of moving electricity it in and out.

There are plenty of places where cheap batteries create value. Especially if the cost of adding carbon to the environment is included, and the true cost of nuclear is calculated. All comparisons should be inclusive, not just the ones supporting ones preference.

Correct.

The studies I was referencing were looking at installing grid-scale battery banks instead of building peakers. The batteries would charge from baseload generation (or excess intermittent renewables), and discharge when peak power is required.

This lets you replace an absurdly-expensive-per-kWh gas peaker with a merely-expensive-per-kWh battery plus cheap-per-kWh base generation.

There's another thread about these studies here: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...-a-power-plant

[russ]

I was directly responding to "10 kWh is not enough". Obviously. I even directly quoted the post. Perhaps I need to type in larger font size for you? Or a prettier color perhaps?

Get smart or be gone. Or do you need that bigger?
You are long on chatter and short on know it seems.

[russ]

This lets you replace an absurdly-expensive-per-kWh gas peaker with a merely-expensive-per-kWh battery plus cheap-per-kWh base generation.

Utilities are where the real market is - that will carry the residential storage customers - the utility market is hundreds of time bigger and much easier to service.

Utilities also need load smoothing to accommodate the wind and other RE being fed into the grid.

[azdave]

So what. Any battery can be cascaded.

True, but not always within the design provided by the manufacturer for their system.

[Mike90250]

Sadly, now that the installed price (only avaib w/install) for the power wall is over $7K, it's going to be a lot less appealing until the rolling blackouts start happening.

[Sunking]

Sadly, now that the installed price (only avaib w/install) for the power wall is over $7K, it's going to be a lot less appealing until the rolling blackouts start happening.

That is exactly what the POCO's are waiting for and planning on. That is when the goberment will pull their head out of their Arse and allow POCO's to start building power plants again by removing all the litigation expense, streamline permitting process, and relaxed environmental regulations to make it affordable and profitable. Right now utilities are just waiting for the shoe to drop. They have all the time in the world on their side.

[donald]

I used to participate on The Oil Drum as a skeptic. Not that I don't believe peak oil will some day be an historical fact. Just that the Peakers vastly underestimated the ability to change. And that the drama the Peakers sincerely expected was unlikely.

It's ironic that the members of the big oil clan have the same lack of understanding. Or perhaps it is not ironic, but simply an aspect of human nature to ignore the obvious when invested in a contrary approach.

The developed world is switching to a mostly renewable energy infrastructure. It will work fine, and will be affordable. And best of all, it will not include flooded lead acid batteries! That's the part I'm most excited about.

[russ]

I used to participate on The Oil Drum as a skeptic. Not that I don't believe peak oil will some day be an historical fact. Just that the Peakers vastly underestimated the ability to change. And that the drama the Peakers sincerely expected was unlikely.

It's ironic that the members of the big oil clan have the same lack of understanding. Or perhaps it is not ironic, but simply an aspect of human nature to ignore the obvious when invested in a contrary approach.

The developed world is switching to a mostly renewable energy infrastructure. It will work fine, and will be affordable. And best of all, it will not include flooded lead acid batteries! That's the part I'm most excited about.

That was 3$ worth of BS in a 2$ bag!