Anyone keeping an ear on Tesla today?

[azdave]

That was 3$ worth of BS in a 2$ bag!

BS overfow is more acurately measured as a liquid so you should have said "That's 5 gallons of BS in a one gallon jug".

[Sunking]

One the things mentioned in the press briefings is that this battery pack makes a perfect match for solar panel owners. This part i don't understand. If you own solar panels and you're on a TOU plan you want to sell your excess electricity back to utility rather than store it in the battery.

Strictly a California insanity market.

[araghava]

One the things mentioned in the press briefings is that this battery pack makes a perfect match for solar panel owners. This part i don't understand. If you own solar panels and you're on a TOU plan you want to sell your excess electricity back to utility rather than store it in the battery.

[russ]

In countries that are not as developed (little to no power transmission lines) that usually have electrical generation using diesel gen sets, might start to install RE system under the impression they will be cheaper but more than likely the poor areas will continue to be without power and the rich areas will be spending as much to maintain their RE generation/storage systems as they did burning diesel. That has worked for telecoms - electricity it is a bs dream


RE is a form of electric generation and IMO needs to be part of the overall portfolio for this country and others. It very much is where it works and is cost effective - hydro for example

Learn to live without those luxuries and maybe RE will work.

What a terrible thing to throw at the green bunch - they mean for others to cut back so they don't have to.

[SunEagle]

I used to participate on The Oil Drum as a skeptic. Not that I don't believe peak oil will some day be an historical fact. Just that the Peakers vastly underestimated the ability to change. And that the drama the Peakers sincerely expected was unlikely.

It's ironic that the members of the big oil clan have the same lack of understanding. Or perhaps it is not ironic, but simply an aspect of human nature to ignore the obvious when invested in a contrary approach.

The developed world is switching to a mostly renewable energy infrastructure. It will work fine, and will be affordable. And best of all, it will not include flooded lead acid batteries! That's the part I'm most excited about.

What you will find out is that in most of the developed world is not wholesale switching to RE and the % that they are installing is small as compared to other types electrical generation.

In countries that are not as developed (little to no power transmission lines) that usually have electrical generation using diesel gen sets, might start to install RE system under the impression they will be cheaper but more than likely the poor areas will continue to be without power and the rich areas will be spending as much to maintain their RE generation/storage systems as they did burning diesel.

I am not and never will be a member of the "oil clan". I have been an electrical engineer for over 40 years and understand a little more of how power is generated and moved around the country.

RE is a form of electric generation and IMO needs to be part of the overall portfolio for this country and others.

But due to the physics of how RE works (or doesn't) it will never be more than a small percentage of all power generation until people learn to reduce the amount they use during a 24/7 operation. People don't like being in the dark and if they rely totally on RE they will be. That is why we have fossil fuel generation and Peakers to keep the lights on and the AC running. Learn to live without those luxuries and maybe RE will work.

[J.P.M.]

I used to participate on The Oil Drum as a skeptic. Not that I don't believe peak oil will some day be an historical fact. Just that the Peakers vastly underestimated the ability to change. And that the drama the Peakers sincerely expected was unlikely.

It's ironic that the members of the big oil clan have the same lack of understanding. Or perhaps it is not ironic, but simply an aspect of human nature to ignore the obvious when invested in a contrary approach.

The developed world is switching to a mostly renewable energy infrastructure. It will work fine, and will be affordable. And best of all, it will not include flooded lead acid batteries! That's the part I'm most excited about.

Some are of the opinion that, like most things in life, it's all about the manipulation of perception by all sides of the energy issue. It's all B.S. and comes down to which version of the B.S smells the best to you, or me, or anyone as to which version we swallow.

[russ]

I used to participate on The Oil Drum as a skeptic. Not that I don't believe peak oil will some day be an historical fact. Just that the Peakers vastly underestimated the ability to change. And that the drama the Peakers sincerely expected was unlikely.

It's ironic that the members of the big oil clan have the same lack of understanding. Or perhaps it is not ironic, but simply an aspect of human nature to ignore the obvious when invested in a contrary approach.

The developed world is switching to a mostly renewable energy infrastructure. It will work fine, and will be affordable. And best of all, it will not include flooded lead acid batteries! That's the part I'm most excited about.

That was 3$ worth of BS in a 2$ bag!

[donald]

I used to participate on The Oil Drum as a skeptic. Not that I don't believe peak oil will some day be an historical fact. Just that the Peakers vastly underestimated the ability to change. And that the drama the Peakers sincerely expected was unlikely.

It's ironic that the members of the big oil clan have the same lack of understanding. Or perhaps it is not ironic, but simply an aspect of human nature to ignore the obvious when invested in a contrary approach.

The developed world is switching to a mostly renewable energy infrastructure. It will work fine, and will be affordable. And best of all, it will not include flooded lead acid batteries! That's the part I'm most excited about.

[Sunking]

Sadly, now that the installed price (only avaib w/install) for the power wall is over $7K, it's going to be a lot less appealing until the rolling blackouts start happening.

That is exactly what the POCO's are waiting for and planning on. That is when the goberment will pull their head out of their Arse and allow POCO's to start building power plants again by removing all the litigation expense, streamline permitting process, and relaxed environmental regulations to make it affordable and profitable. Right now utilities are just waiting for the shoe to drop. They have all the time in the world on their side.

[Mike90250]

Sadly, now that the installed price (only avaib w/install) for the power wall is over $7K, it's going to be a lot less appealing until the rolling blackouts start happening.

[azdave]

So what. Any battery can be cascaded.

True, but not always within the design provided by the manufacturer for their system.

[russ]

This lets you replace an absurdly-expensive-per-kWh gas peaker with a merely-expensive-per-kWh battery plus cheap-per-kWh base generation.

Utilities are where the real market is - that will carry the residential storage customers - the utility market is hundreds of time bigger and much easier to service.

Utilities also need load smoothing to accommodate the wind and other RE being fed into the grid.

[russ]

I was directly responding to "10 kWh is not enough". Obviously. I even directly quoted the post. Perhaps I need to type in larger font size for you? Or a prettier color perhaps?

Get smart or be gone. Or do you need that bigger?
You are long on chatter and short on know it seems.

[pleppik]

Peakers make power. Batteries transfer power across time.
A fair comparison needs to include the cost of making the power to put in the battery, as well and the efficiency loss of moving electricity it in and out.

There are plenty of places where cheap batteries create value. Especially if the cost of adding carbon to the environment is included, and the true cost of nuclear is calculated. All comparisons should be inclusive, not just the ones supporting ones preference.

Correct.

The studies I was referencing were looking at installing grid-scale battery banks instead of building peakers. The batteries would charge from baseload generation (or excess intermittent renewables), and discharge when peak power is required.

This lets you replace an absurdly-expensive-per-kWh gas peaker with a merely-expensive-per-kWh battery plus cheap-per-kWh base generation.

There's another thread about these studies here: http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...-a-power-plant

[donald]

Tesla also announced utility-scale battery systems, so yes, apparently someone did think of this.

They didn't give pricing for the utility systems, but it's probably safe to assume that the price per KW for utilities is lower than the $300/KW they're charging for the residential systems.

At $300/KW for utility-scale batteries, there's studies for California and Texas that show batteries are a cheaper alternative to building gas-fired peakers.

Peakers make power. Batteries transfer power across time.
A fair comparison needs to include the cost of making the power to put in the battery, as well and the efficiency loss of moving electricity it in and out.

There are plenty of places where cheap batteries create value. Especially if the cost of adding carbon to the environment is included, and the true cost of nuclear is calculated. All comparisons should be inclusive, not just the ones supporting ones preference.