I just had a 8KW system installed by an installer. Now I don't trust them...

[derekc]

I just had a 8KW system installed by an installer. Now I don't trust them would honor any warranty in the future.
They are in San Francisco and do 99% of their installs in SF. I am 30 miles away and one of the few they have done outside SF.
The system is good price at $3.70 per watt, plus my roof is spanish tiles, two-story, and the city is picky. They spent hrs commuting every time they came. Now the the envoy monitoring device is intermittently working due to some interference that we have to isolate and it doesn't look like they care to address the problem (because I am demanding, they are busy, I am far away to them, it is hard to troubleshoot, etc..), I might get into some legal battle with them.
My question is if I tell them I will do my own troubleshooting to fix the envoy problem and I will want to do my per panel monitoring, and I will not need them to honor the warranty, for a partial refund of the $ I paid them, will I be in a better position? I kind of heard that Enphase actually pay them to fix any problem on the micro-inverters so they "want" to come and I would not get a penny back if I don't need them to do the warranty work. Also, do I get warranty from Enphase and SolarWorld directly if I ditch them? PG&E would be ok with me ditching them? Any other concerns?

[J.P.M.]

I just had a 8KW system installed by an installer. Now I don't trust them would honor any warranty in the future.
They are in San Francisco and do 99% of their installs in SF. I am 30 miles away and one of the few they have done outside SF.
The system is good price at $3.70 per watt, plus my roof is spanish tiles, two-story, and the city is picky. They spent hrs commuting every time they came. Now the the envoy monitoring device is intermittently working due to some interference that we have to isolate and it doesn't look like they care to address the problem (because I am demanding, they are busy, I am far away to them, it is hard to troubleshoot, etc..), I might get into some legal battle with them.
My question is if I tell them I will do my own troubleshooting to fix the envoy problem and I will want to do my per panel monitoring, and I will not need them to honor the warranty, for a partial refund of the $ I paid them, will I be in a better position? I kind of heard that Enphase actually pay them to fix any problem on the micro-inverters so they "want" to come and I would not get a penny back if I don't need them to do the warranty work. Also, do I get warranty from Enphase and SolarWorld directly if I ditch them? PG&E would be ok with me ditching them? Any other concerns?

They signed a contract. They are responsible for the terms on their end. Period. I'd not take on any system troubleshooting or maint. unless you want to own all of it and perhaps give them a reasonable excuse to claim problems are your doing.

[derekc]

But they are ignoring me. I have stopped the last payment. I told them I would pay after the system is in completely working condition but for over a week, they have not responded.

[silversaver]

Is your Envoy on Wifi, Power Line or CAT5 cable?

CAT5 cable shouldn't have any problem since they are direct communication. unplug and plug in again.

If your setup is under Wifi, check your WiFi signal if within the range.

Power line communication... then unplug and plug in the power modual.


Most of people don't tell the whole sotry...... If your solar really have problem, installer will take care of it. If you like to have additional monitoring service not cover by original term with installer, you can call Enphase to add individual panel monitoring. Envoy monitoring is not instantaneous, it has 5 to 30 min delay.

[wwu123]

If it is primarily that the Envoy monitoring is receiving intermittent communications from the Enphase units, they communicate via powerine communications, which can be impacted by noise and other interference on your home electrical wiring. I had a lot of challenges finding a power outlet anywhere in the house that allowed the Envoy to get a solid signal, and the ones closest to the actual circuit breakers were some of the worst.

If yours is a similar situation, you can place the blame on them, but they being able to isolate what is causing the interference on your wiring could be quite difficult; more likely the easiest thing is just to move the Envoy around to different outlets around the house. Even if they isolate some appliance or electronics that is causing the communication issue, you'll have to agree to unplug it.

[derekc]

I read the envoy troubleshooting guide online. I know about installing ferrite tororids (Epcos B64290L82x87) to eliminate noise on each circuit. I am ready to do it myself but if I do, then they will say I am messing it up.
BTW, anyone has experience installing those ferrite toroids? Hot and neutral or just hot wire? One pass or two, three passess thru the ring?
Back to the question of if I negotiate with them to let them off the trouble of providing future warranty, do I have a case to ask for a partial credit of, say, $3000? Will I then actually get warranty from SolarWorld and Enphase since I did not buy from them directly?
I asked enphase about this situation, they said:

"Please contact the installer to provide per-module access (they are the only entity with access to provide you with per-module monitoring). Once per-module access has been setup, you can remove them from the settings tab once you've logged in."

[thejq]

Why don't you call Enphase tech support directly and say the installer isn't helping you. I sure they will help you debug the problem. But first you have to isolate the problem like others (above) said. If your Envoy displays the right info, but you're not getting updates to the web, it's your wifi or CAT cabling or router. If Envoy doesn't display the right info, it's the power line comm. The latter is much more difficult to debug and solve.

[derekc]

Internet access is trouble-free. I always get +WEB.
It is the powerline communication signal that randomly and often drop from 4 bar to none. The envoy thing does not give real time info. It takes 15 mins to see if any chances actually pinpoint the trouble circuit but I actually kind of pintpoint it is some LED tubes in the garage causing the zero bar but again should they get this done? I asked for some ferrite toroids and they have not even responded so now the issue is will they provide future warranty when/if something goes bad? If not, then I better deal with it now (since I have not paid them in full) than later with a lawsuit.

[silversaver]

Your solar is working, just the powerline communication has issue. Like I said, just unglug and re-plug in the powerline module, it will update the data. Again, you will not get instantaneous output. All the data will be delay. If you really cannot solve the communication issue, then switch to WiFi, all you need is a WiFi extender to your wireless router.

Or get a new set of Powerline modules.

I don't see how a simple fix can cause so much of problem.

[sdold]

BTW, anyone has experience installing those ferrite toroids? Hot and neutral or just hot wire? One pass or two, three passes thru the ring?

I did. Luckily I had installed a sub-panel for the solar panels, which also has the breaker and dedicated outlet for the Envoy, so it made it easy to isolate the Envoy from the rest of the house, but still have it "see" the inverters. I used one separate toroid on each hot leg, wrapped one turn each. My system went from no bars, no communication to full bars and no problem communicating.

Here's what I would do (besides trying to get the installer to take care of it): During the day, when the inverters are running, turn off everything in the house and shut off all of the other branch circuits, leaving only the solar panels and the envoy connected to the bus, and powered. You'll have to leave one circuit on to run the Envoy, try to make it one that is electrically "close" to the panels and make sure every other thing on that circuit is turned off. See if it communicates after a few minutes. If it does, start turning on one branch circuit at a time in the panel along with the devices that are on that circuit (like the computers, anything else that communicates over power lines, etc.). You can watch the bars on the Envoy as you turn things on. If you find one or two branch circuits that seem to cause trouble, it will be easy to isolate those with toroids, and you will probably only need to use a single toroid on the hot wire at the breaker.

You might have received a pair of Ethernet powerline bridges with your Envoy, to be used instead of an Ethernet cable. Unplug those too, if you are using them, to rule them out. Also, I have a similar pair of devices connecting my router to my TV. They are always running, and I suspect they might have been what was interfering with the Envoy, but I never unplugged them to find out. And when I tried to use the powerline bridges that came with the Envoy, they interfered with the ones running my TV, so I couldn't use them anyway. Those things work great, but I suspect they may cause trouble with the Envoy.

I wouldn't expect a solar company to have any idea how to deal with RF interference, or to even know what a toroid is or does.

[derekc]

Is your Envoy on Wifi, Power Line or CAT5 cable?

CAT5 cable shouldn't have any problem since they are direct communication. unplug and plug in again.

If your setup is under Wifi, check your WiFi signal if within the range.

Power line communication... then unplug and plug in the power modual.


Most of people don't tell the whole sotry...... If your solar really have problem, installer will take care of it. If you like to have additional monitoring service not cover by original term with installer, you can call Enphase to add individual panel monitoring. Envoy monitoring is not instantaneous, it has 5 to 30 min delay.

Envoy is not wifi. To the internet side, it is using ethernet (and I have an access point right by it), to the micro-inverter side, it is using the 120V powerline to communicate to the micro-inverters. This is the problem as there is one or more electrical devices in the house causing interference.

Unplugging and replugging would not solve the problem if the interference is still there.

I am telling the whole story. The envoy monitoring is part of the deal.

[derekc]

If it is primarily that the Envoy monitoring is receiving intermittent communications from the Enphase units, they communicate via powerine communications, which can be impacted by noise and other interference on your home electrical wiring. I had a lot of challenges finding a power outlet anywhere in the house that allowed the Envoy to get a solid signal, and the ones closest to the actual circuit breakers were some of the worst.

If yours is a similar situation, you can place the blame on them, but they being able to isolate what is causing the interference on your wiring could be quite difficult; more likely the easiest thing is just to move the Envoy around to different outlets around the house. Even if they isolate some appliance or electronics that is causing the communication issue, you'll have to agree to unplug it.

Yeap, situation is same. I have actually done a lot of troubleshooting and I 99% know which circuit is causing the intereference. I asked them to ship me some ferrite torroids and maybe a replacement envoy (just in case) so that I can get this over with and I did offer to do it myself but they ignored me.

Now it is not how to fix but with the fact that they are not willing to get it fixed, how do I deal with it.

[sdold]

There are some ferrite toroid devices that clamp over wires and cables, so that you don't need to disconnect anything, and I'm sure that wouldn't invalidate any warranty. Or at least you could remove them if they don't work. Digi-Key, Mouser, and other on-line retailers should have them. We use them a lot at work for RF isolation.

[derekc]

I did. Luckily I had installed a sub-panel for the solar panels, which also has the breaker and dedicated outlet for the Envoy, so it made it easy to isolate the Envoy from the rest of the house, but still have it "see" the inverters. I used one separate toroid on each hot leg, wrapped one turn each. My system went from no bars, no communication to full bars and no problem communicating.

Here's what I would do (besides trying to get the installer to take care of it): During the day, when the inverters are running, turn off everything in the house and shut off all of the other branch circuits, leaving only the solar panels and the envoy connected to the bus, and powered. You'll have to leave one circuit on to run the Envoy, try to make it one that is electrically "close" to the panels and make sure every other thing on that circuit is turned off. See if it communicates after a few minutes. If it does, start turning on one branch circuit at a time in the panel along with the devices that are on that circuit (like the computers, anything else that communicates over power lines, etc.). You can watch the bars on the Envoy as you turn things on. If you find one or two branch circuits that seem to cause trouble, it will be easy to isolate those with toroids, and you will probably only need to use a single toroid on the hot wire at the breaker.

You might have received a pair of Ethernet powerline bridges with your Envoy, to be used instead of an Ethernet cable. Unplug those too, if you are using them, to rule them out. Also, I have a similar pair of devices connecting my router to my TV. They are always running, and I suspect they might have been what was interfering with the Envoy, but I never unplugged them to find out. And when I tried to use the powerline bridges that came with the Envoy, they interfered with the ones running my TV, so I couldn't use them anyway. Those things work great, but I suspect they may cause trouble with the Envoy.

I wouldn't expect a solar company to have any idea how to deal with RF interference, or to even know what a toroid is or does.

I know what you meant. Put the envoy at the subpanel and install a toroid on the main panel where the solar circuit connects. But in my case there is no slot for adding a 5A circuit on the solar subpanel. Yes, I have to find the interfering circuit and put a toroid on it and hope no other things in the house is causing interference.

But monitoring is part of the deal and they have not completed their job. They NEED to know what interference is and how to use toroid to solve the problem.

[derekc]

There are some ferrite toroid devices that clamp over wires and cables, so that you don't need to disconnect anything, and I'm sure that wouldn't invalidate any warranty. Or at least you could remove them if they don't work. Digi-Key, Mouser, and other on-line retailers should have them. We use them a lot at work for RF isolation.

That was what I first tried. I took off a clip-on one off my monitor video cable but it did nothing. I am a network engineer, not an electrical engineer and it seems different ferrite toroid has different strengh. In the troubleshooting guide, they said they use EPCOS B64290L82X87 which has a 50mm OD. 50MM is big, isn't it. I wish that is a clip on but no. That means I have to remove the break to install. No problem with that.

I will buy some and fix it myself, then officially claim they had refused to address the problem, leaving me no choice but to fix it myself.