Solar Quote help

[Joker45]

I think you will start getting more resistance at the price point you are at. SP under $5 a watt, in CA, is like a Sasquatch. It may be out there but few have seen it, and all supporting photos and video are blurry. The PPD Lease will likely be more than the purchase price and putting money down on an SP lease always drops the monthly payment. Lease vs buy is up to your lifestyle. In the home more than 20 years buying is usually best. Your lease payments will add up to the purchase costs in year 16 + potential cost of an inverter repair/replacement which could equal a year of lease payments. 16-17 years looks like a break even lease vs buy. If you do plan to sell your house there is a lot more value in a purchased system after about ten years. Two good options. Lifestyle is the decider. Is your tile or comp shingles?

SoCalsolar,

Thanks for the reply. The Sasquatch thing was great! I hear you on the price points though.

We have only been in this house for about 15 months and have no plans to move for the foreseeable future. We have 4 kids and it's going to be up to 10 years before they all move out depending on college etc. So unless we win the lottery, we are going to be here for at least that long.

Right now I'm leaning more towards buying due to the tax incentives and then it's ours. With the warranty that is offered on SunPower, I shouldn't have to worry about anything for at least 10 years. And then it's maybe an inverter and who knows how improved and what they will be going for in 10-15 years.

Our roof is tile.

Thanks again.

[Joker45]

Well I asked one of the installers to give me a quote with the X21 panels instead of the E20's that he originally quoted me. He said that there was a substantial price difference between the two and then gave me the following quote which is less /kw then any of his other ones.

(21) Sunpower X21-345 Panels
(1) SunPower SPR-7000m inverter
System Cost = $34,081
Tax Credit = $10,224
Net Cost = $23,857

DC STC Rating = 7200 kW

First yr production = 11,649 kWh
Current annual usage = 14,074 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $4.70
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.29

He also quoted me $39,000 for a 24 panel X21 system.

I'm pretty happy with this price in California. I'm not sure exactly which size I should go with. I'm leaning towards the 21 panel system as that's about 83% of my bill based on their numbers. But if I go with the bigger system at 8280 kW. That should zero out my bill and then maybe a little extra cushion.

[Ian S]

I'm pretty happy with this price in California. I'm not sure exactly which size I should go with. I'm leaning towards the 21 panel system as that's about 83% of my bill based on their numbers. But if I go with the bigger system at 8280 kW. That should zero out my bill and then maybe a little extra cushion.

Interesting that the larger system actually has the $/kW increase slightly to $4.71. Assuming you would be in some kind of tiered rate structure, the extra production is only going to offset the lowest tier kWh cost. Your most bang for the buck looks like it would be with the smaller system. Here in Arizona, the utilities are beginning to whine about all the residential solar and I'm wondering if those folks who produce more than they use will become targets as the utilities try to make detrimental changes to net metering.

Anyway, whichever way you go, I'm sure you'll be happy with the Sunpower system.

[Joker45]

Interesting that the larger system actually has the $/kW increase slightly to $4.71. Assuming you would be in some kind of tiered rate structure, the extra production is only going to offset the lowest tier kWh cost. Your most bang for the buck looks like it would be with the smaller system. Here in Arizona, the utilities are beginning to whine about all the residential solar and I'm wondering if those folks who produce more than they use will become targets as the utilities try to make detrimental changes to net metering.

Anyway, whichever way you go, I'm sure you'll be happy with the Sunpower system.

Yes I thought it was interesting how 3 panels and a larger inverter push up the $ /kW price a bit. I have heard rumors of PG&E also complaining about solar production on residential homes. With the price difference between the two sizes it would take about a year and a half longer to reach the pay off point. And yes, it would eliminate the lowest tier at $.13/kwh. Not a big return on that..

[stevenh]

Well I asked one of the installers to give me a quote with the X21 panels instead of the E20's that he originally quoted me. He said that there was a substantial price difference between the two and then gave me the following quote which is less /kw then any of his other ones.

(21) Sunpower X21-345 Panels
(1) SunPower SPR-7000m inverter
System Cost = $34,081
Tax Credit = $10,224
Net Cost = $23,857

DC STC Rating = 7200 kW

First yr production = 11,649 kWh
Current annual usage = 14,074 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $4.70
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.29

He also quoted me $39,000 for a 24 panel X21 system.

I'm pretty happy with this price in California. I'm not sure exactly which size I should go with. I'm leaning towards the 21 panel system as that's about 83% of my bill based on their numbers. But if I go with the bigger system at 8280 kW. That should zero out my bill and then maybe a little extra cushion.

Have you ever considered getting a certified installer out to do a blueprint and tell you what you'll need for an (X)kw system?

For example, Alliance Solar will come out to your home and do a blueprint and quote for the labor. They'll tell you exactly what you'd need to build the system you want. Then, you can order from a panel wholesaler at a huge discount. I'm doing this and will be ordering my panels through KingSolarman up in in SF. I'm going with either Phonosolar or Talesun 240w panels @.75 and .65 per watt respectively. I picked up a brand new Xantrex 2.8 for .30w (I know, spectacular deal if there are no issues) I'm hoping to be completely installed, unistrut frames, and done for around $2.25 a watt.

I mean, you're talking a 7kw system. Even if you could pull it in for around $3 that would save you $10k. Because Alliance (or whoever)engineered and installed it, would do your rebate paperwork as well.

I'm new to all of this, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there. I don't have to know a watt from a volt to understand a better deal.

[Lomag]

Have you ever considered getting a certified installer out to do a blueprint and tell you what you'll need for an (X)kw system?

For example, Alliance Solar will come out to your home and do a blueprint and quote for the labor. They'll tell you exactly what you'd need to build the system you want. Then, you can order from a panel wholesaler at a huge discount. I'm doing this and will be ordering my panels through KingSolarman up in in SF. I'm going with either Phonosolar or Talesun 240w panels @.75 and .65 per watt respectively. I picked up a brand new Xantrex 2.8 for .30w (I know, spectacular deal if there are no issues) I'm hoping to be completely installed, unistrut frames, and done for around $2.25 a watt.

I mean, you're talking a 7kw system. Even if you could pull it in for around $3 that would save you $10k. Because Alliance (or whoever)engineered and installed it, would do your rebate paperwork as well.

I'm new to all of this, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there. I don't have to know a watt from a volt to understand a better deal.

Until you have a problem, then you are SOL.

[russ]

Chasing the guarantees would be up to you - a "real" installer/sales company makes allowance for that cost. In your scenario it would be you.

Many of the certified installers you are talking about have no business designing a system.

Might work and might not - it is your money on the line.

You have stated you have no idea so how do you tell if they are blowing smoke at you?

[stevenh]

Chasing the guarantees would be up to you - a "real" installer/sales company makes allowance for that cost. In your scenario it would be you.

Many of the certified installers you are talking about have no business designing a system.

Might work and might not - it is your money on the line.

You have stated you have no idea so how do you tell if they are blowing smoke at you?

In my scenario I was referencing a company (Alliance Solar) which is a fully licensed for solar contractor, including PE, C-10, C-20 and is a CEC certified solar installer. A reputable company that seems to have no problem installing a customers hardware.

I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. I was a contractor myself for thirty years, so I guess I look at things from cost perspective only.

That'll teach me to do that in here :P

PS, this also wasn't a blurb for Alliance. They are just the alternative I'll use if I can't figure it out for myself. That's why I'm here.

[Joker45]

I had considered attempting to find a certified installer to install a solar system that I would purchase. But there seems to be several issues with doing it that way as described above plus some other things I have thought about.

I am seriously leaning towards SunPower panels and there is no way to purchase them without having one of their dealers/installers do the job.

I am expecting some more quotes in the next few days.

[russ]

I didn't consider it a blurb for the company or I would have deleted it so no problem.

A very small percentage of the overall population has any business going the "install it yourself" way. There are skills required that most homeowners don't possess. Others here, like Green for example, are "certified" DIY types - in his case he was in the building/facility maintenance business for many years and is capable.

Myself, I have no desire to be doing such a thing - falling off a roof and busting my ass is not on my bucket list. I routinely climb steel structures and have no problem with heights but installing panels is another thing.

Many suppliers don't really respond to individuals from what some members report and will really only deal with a business making warranties a nuisance.

Trying to do an installation to "code" when one does not know the NEC certainly seems problematic.

For those that feel they are competent and have the skills required (or a buddy with them) I wish them all the best as it would be satisfying for many.

[SoCalsolar]

Sasquatch Sighting

Nice Work Joker you got a Sasquatch. Keep us informed on how your job progresses.

[Joker45]

Nice Work Joker you got a Sasquatch. Keep us informed on how your job progresses.

Thanks SoCalsolar. I'm still working on two more quotes. I hope to have the last of them in to me by Saturday and then make a decision and sign some paperwork. We are going to purchase the system as it seems to have the best return.

One of the installers said that with a purchase, I could have the system operational by the first part of August. He told me that leases take a month or two longer due to the financing and delays with paperwork.

[Joker45]

After doing a lot more reading, I have a question about inverter sizing with this set up. I know originally the first two quotes were going to put the panels on two different sides of my roof. Southwest and southeast facing. With this quote below, he wants to put all the panels on the southwest facing roof. I checked the inverter sizing tool on Power-one's website and it said that this would be 111% of the inverter's capacity and could result in loss of power generation.

I know that Naptown said that in the first quote with panels facing different directions that would minimize clipping and would work fine if set up correctly by the installer. But with all the panels on one side with this power one inverter, would that still be true or should this be changed? Am I worrying about nothing? But i also understand about trying to keeo the inverter at peak efficiency for longer periods of time. But, I would hate to lose what could be a decent amount of production.

Also, is the power one inverters the way to go? Seems that they have a lower start up voltage and really good efficiency. If I remember from reading some posts on here, fronius inverters don't seem to be highly recommended.

(20) Sunpower SPR X21 345 Panels
(1) Power-One PVI 6000 OUTD-US-W inverter

DC STC Rating = 6900 kW

Thanks.

[Ian S]

After doing a lot more reading, I have a question about inverter sizing with this set up. I know originally the first two quotes were going to put the panels on two different sides of my roof. Southwest and southeast facing. With this quote below, he wants to put all the panels on the southwest facing roof. I checked the inverter sizing tool on Power-one's website and it said that this would be 111% of the inverter's capacity and could result in loss of power generation.

I know that Naptown said that in the first quote with panels facing different directions that would minimize clipping and would work fine if set up correctly by the installer. But with all the panels on one side with this power one inverter, would that still be true or should this be changed? Am I worrying about nothing? But i also understand about trying to keeo the inverter at peak efficiency for longer periods of time. But, I would hate to lose what could be a decent amount of production.

Also, is the power one inverters the way to go? Seems that they have a lower start up voltage and really good efficiency. If I remember from reading some posts on here, fronius inverters don't seem to be highly recommended.

(20) Sunpower SPR X21 345 Panels
(1) Power-One PVI 6000 OUTD-US-W inverter

DC STC Rating = 6900 kW

Thanks.

Does the Power-One calculator take into consideration your latitude and the fact that the array will be southwest facing? Because for highest power output, you would have to have the sun's rays perpendicular to your panels. That may not even happen for a southwest facing array. Even when it does, it's likely to be the hottest part of the day around late spring early summer timeframe when your panels will be well above the standard temperature used to produce the nameplate power rating. That said, I have Sunpower panels and the array has in a few cases produced 5% more power than nameplate here in Phoenix.

I suppose it depends on how anal you are about such things and whether clipping a few times a year would really annoy you. Why not just get a 7 kW inverter like the Sunpower rebadged Sunny Boy?

[Joker45]

Does the Power-One calculator take into consideration your latitude and the fact that the array will be southwest facing? Because for highest power output, you would have to have the sun's rays perpendicular to your panels. That may not even happen for a southwest facing array. Even when it does, it's likely to be the hottest part of the day around late spring early summer timeframe when your panels will be well above the standard temperature used to produce the nameplate power rating. That said, I have Sunpower panels and the array has in a few cases produced 5% more power than nameplate here in Phoenix.

I suppose it depends on how anal you are about such things and whether clipping a few times a year would really annoy you. Why not just get a 7 kW inverter like the Sunpower rebadged Sunny Boy?

Thnaks Ian.

The tool takes into account temperature but not the azimuth of the array so that's a good point. I'm not worried about clipping a few times a year at all, I'm just wondering because of the size difference. Some articles say that 1.15 panel to inverter sizing is the way to go while others say that it should be matched as efficiencies have improved during the load range of the inverter and keeping them loaded to the max is not as important as it used to be. Just trying the figure out the truth from the bs.