Solar Quote help

[Joker45]

Hi everyone!

I'm looking to put solar on my house to offset my PG&E consumption. So far I have received 3 quotes but only 2 are recent. I am really interested in Sunpower panels due to the warranty and what appears to be superior construction. Anyway, today I received my second quote and first SunPower quote and I'm pretty sure this company is trying to pull one over on me as there are some issues I have with their quote and panel placement and equipment used.

(25) Sunpower E20-327 Panels
(1) Fronius 7000US inverter
System Cost = $42,176
Tax Credit = $12,652
Net Cost = $29,523

DC STC Rating = 8175 kW

First yr production = 13,306 kWh
Current annual usage = 13,719 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $5.20
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.64

Average monthly electric bill $272.13

12 Year 2.99% loan with 12 month S.A.C. $268.68
SunPower Prepaid lease $34,355.89
SunPower Lease $265.18

Now the problem I have with this set up is that they quoted me an undersized inverter. Please correct me if I'm wrong but should it not be sized for the system? Also, I have a roof that they are going to install panels on two different sides. I have zero shading issues but one side faces southwest and the other is southeast. Using one inverter seems to be contrary for this setup from what I have been reading unless it's one of the PV1 inverters of a micro-inverter setup.. Is this correct? This company also told me that they got a special deal on 150 of the above panels and they would pass one the savings to me. I don't believe that for a minute after seeing this quote. I also think that the lease is not a good deal as they proposed. There is no real savings as proposed.

(?) Canadian Solar Panels
(?) Enphase Inverters
System Cost = $34,961
Tax Credit = $10,488
Net Cost = $24,473

DC STC Rating = 7.750 kW

First yr production = 11,932 kWh
Current annual usage = 13,719 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $4.51
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.16

I will be getting more quotes soon. I also believe that most companies are marking up their total job cost to offset the federal tax credit. At least that what it seems to be to me if you price out a system by component and estimate labor, permits etc.

I was able to price out the Canadian solar proposal and with all materials, it came out to about $18-19,000. Add in the $500 worth of local permit fees, $5,000 for labor to install the system in two days and tax on the materials and you are right about $25-26,000. Now I realize that they have overhead etc, but I don't see an extra $10,000 in labor costs. I am all for people making a living, but I work too darn hard to just give my money away. Am I way off base here?

[Naptown]

A few things
The inverter Is most likely within the power band of allowed input. With arrays facing in 2 directions it is unlikely to clip due to too much wattage.
As long as each string is coplanar meaning all the modules in any one string are facing in the same direction there are very minimal losses. (SMA has a white paper out about this) in all likelihood they are doing 5 strings of 5 modules with 10 on one roof and 15 on the other.
Micro inverters are not an option with those modules

Comparing a Canadian Solar system to a Sunpower system is like comparing an S class Mercedes to a Yugo. Two entirely different things when comparing quality, service and probably durability.

As far as how much the contractor makes it is far less than you are imagining it to be. If you feel that way I would suggest that you make everything you need and use yourself as most retail stores have markups on the level of 5 times what this contractor is charging.

I would be questioning the Canadian solar one if profit is an issue with you. That dealer is making more on that quote than the Sunpower dealer is. I know I am a Sunpower dealer and know what his equipment costs are.

Lastly if the total Canadian solar system watts, number of panels and inverter manufacturer are correct that system will not work period.
Those panels are 323 watt as stated most likely 72 cell panels which put them so far out of the realm of using enphase I think that dealer is incompetent if what you stated is correct.

[KRenn]

Hi everyone!

I'm looking to put solar on my house to offset my PG&E consumption. So far I have received 3 quotes but only 2 are recent. I am really interested in Sunpower panels due to the warranty and what appears to be superior construction. Anyway, today I received my second quote and first SunPower quote and I'm pretty sure this company is trying to pull one over on me as there are some issues I have with their quote and panel placement and equipment used.

(25) Sunpower E20-327 Panels
(1) SMA 7000US inverter
System Cost = $42,176
Tax Credit = $12,652
Net Cost = $29,523

DC STC Rating = 8175 kW

First yr production = 13,306 kWh
Current annual usage = 13,719 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $5.20
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.64

Average monthly electric bill $272.13

12 Year 2.99% loan with 12 month S.A.C. $268.68
SunPower Prepaid lease $34,355.89
SunPower Lease $265.18

Now the problem I have with this set up is that they quoted me an undersized inverter. Please correct me if I'm wrong but should it not be sized for the system? Also, I have a roof that they are going to install panels on two different sides. I have zero shading issues but one side faces southwest and the other is southeast. Using one inverter seems to be contrary for this setup from what I have been reading unless it's one of the PV1 inverters of a micro-inverter setup.. Is this correct? This company also told me that they got a special deal on 150 of the above panels and they would pass one the savings to me. I don't believe that for a minute after seeing this quote. I also think that the lease is not a good deal as they proposed. There is no real savings as proposed.

(24) Canadian Solar Panels
(24) Enphase Inverters
System Cost = $34,961
Tax Credit = $10,488
Net Cost = $24,473

DC STC Rating = 7.750 kW

First yr production = 11,932 kWh
Current annual usage = 13,719 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $4.51
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.16

I will be getting more quotes soon. I also believe that most companies are marking up their total job cost to offset the federal tax credit. At least that what it seems to be to me if you price out a system by component and estimate labor, permits etc.

I was able to price out the Canadian solar proposal and with all materials, it came out to about $18-19,000. Add in the $500 worth of local permit fees, $5,000 for labor to install the system in two days and tax on the materials and you are right about $25-26,000. Now I realize that they have overhead etc, but I don't see an extra $10,000 in labor costs. I am all for people making a living, but I work too darn hard to just give my money away. Am I way off base here?

A. The Canadian Solar dealer is trying to take you to the cleaners. BRB, a 7 kilowatt poly system for almost $4.50 a watt.....that's just crazy. Even with micro inverters there's no way they should go a penny more than $4.00 a watt at worst.


B. The SunPower quote seems decent for your area of the country, however I've seen a couple better ones on here. I would definitely call around and see if you can get a little better deal on them.

C. For the SunPower system your inverter isn't undersized by any means. SMA recommends having the inverter no smaller than 75% of the system size....you're getting a 7000 watt inverter for an 8000 watt system, which is basically ideal.


D. The Canadian Solar guy is definitely trying to pull one over on you, but generally solar is not a high margin business. You have to account for the myriad of costs today, as well as plan for future costs when it comes to potentially replacing panels and inverters, overhead, marketing..etc...etc. They really aren't making the killing that some people assume they are.

[Joker45]

A few things
The inverter Is most likely within the power band of allowed input. With arrays facing in 2 directions it is unlikely to clip due to too much wattage.
As long as each string is coplanar meaning all the modules in any one string are facing in the same direction there are very minimal losses. (SMA has a white paper out about this) in all likelihood they are doing 5 strings of 5 modules with 10 on one roof and 15 on the other.
Micro inverters are not an option with those modules

Comparing a Canadian Solar system to a Sunpower system is like comparing an S class Mercedes to a Yugo. Two entirely different things when comparing quality, service and probably durability.

As far as how much the contractor makes it is far less than you are imagining it to be. If you feel that way I would suggest that you make everything you need and use yourself as most retail stores have markups on the level of 5 times what this contractor is charging.

I would be questioning the Canadian solar one if profit is an issue with you. That dealer is making more on that quote than the Sunpower dealer is. I know I am a Sunpower dealer and know what his equipment costs are.

Lastly if the total Canadian solar system watts, number of panels and inverter manufacturer are correct that system will not work period.
Those panels are 323 watt as stated most likely 72 cell panels which put them so far out of the realm of using enphase I think that dealer is incompetent if what you stated is correct.

Thanks for the reply. That makes sense on the inverter. I was asking the salesman questions that he couldn't answer. He was a really nice guy but new. He had only been in the business about 2 months and he didn't even know about the lease buy out option. He also tried to get me to sign the contract to save my place in the installation que........

I know it's really not a fair compairison between the two systems but those are the quotes I have so far. I also understand that I may be off in my estimates of costs regarding installing a system, but I also believe that both quotes I have so far are at least alittle on the high side. The SunPower quote for the lease seems really high to me. From what I have read, most appear to be getting leases with the same or more for under $200/month. I realize that SunPower is a better panel and that's why I am leaning towards getting it. But I'm not blinded by the "Mercedes" but it is darn shinny!

I don't have an issue with profit, I do have an issue with price gouging or at least the appearance of such. I do not pretend to know all the in's and out's of this industry and that's why I'm here. Asking questions and reading as much as I can.

I may be off in the Canadian solar quote in the amount of panels. I can not locate the number of panels and inverters on the quote that was given to me and I didn't do the math to figure out the number. I do know that it wasn't 323 watt panels. I thought they were in the 240 range so I am guessing that the number of panels would be greater then I said. My bad....

[Joker45]

A. The Canadian Solar dealer is trying to take you to the cleaners. BRB, a 7 kilowatt poly system for almost $4.50 a watt.....that's just crazy. Even with micro inverters there's no way they should go a penny more than $4.00 a watt at worst.


B. The SunPower quote seems decent for your area of the country, however I've seen a couple better ones on here. I would definitely call around and see if you can get a little better deal on them.

C. For the SunPower system your inverter isn't undersized by any means. SMA recommends having the inverter no smaller than 75% of the system size....you're getting a 7000 watt inverter for an 8000 watt system, which is basically ideal.


D. The Canadian Solar guy is definitely trying to pull one over on you, but generally solar is not a high margin business. You have to account for the myriad of costs today, as well as plan for future costs when it comes to potentially replacing panels and inverters, overhead, marketing..etc...etc. They really aren't making the killing that some people assume they are.

I have requested quotes from 4 other SunPower installers in my area tonight. In less then a week I should have some more numbers to go by. Right now based on the numbers provided to me by the SunPower installer, there really is not a financial incentive to go with them based purely on saving money at least in the short term. Sure as PG&E rates rise, I would be saving money but it would be a small amount over time and not really an initial savings at all. I also understand that they may be under promissing and over delivering. That's a great way to do things if the original offer is good enough to entice you to do it in the first place. Thanks for the info on the inverter size and your take on the Canadian solar quote.

[cyph]

Let me add a counter opinion on the Sunpower. A Mercedes has the bling factor because you're driving it around town with its heated seats, heated steering wheels, lane assist, etc. so people can gawk at your wealth (or foolishness at throwing your money away). Solar panels sit on your roof, out of sight out of mind. They pretty much do the same thing even if one is more efficient by a few percentage than the other. The only thing that matters is how many years the system will get your money back to pay off that initial investment and start saving.

Personally, I'd rather save the differences for the Sunpower and put that toward a mutual fund. When the time comes for replacement, I would use that money that I earn and purchase a newer and better model of the panel to replace the bad one.

Also, one thing that dealers never mention is that with E6 time of use from PGE, you can size your system significantly smaller than your annual usage and still be able to zero out your bill.

[SteveCA]

I would question the logic behind their sizing of your system. The proposed system eliminates 100% of your bill. I would look at your PGE bill and see how many kilowatts you are using at their higher tier rates and size your system to eliminate the over baseline usage. The part that you pay 30-35 cents per kilowatt for. That's where the best return on your investment will come from. Your proposed sizing eliminates your entire bill and while that seems cool, it isn't the best bang for the buck. PGE's charge for baseline is around 12 cents per kilowatt. If you do your cost benefit calc's, you will see that it doesn't make a lot of sense to eliminate your baseline usage at 12 cents per kilowatt.

[KRenn]

Let me add a counter opinion on the Sunpower. A Mercedes has the bling factor because you're driving it around town with its heated seats, heated steering wheels, lane assist, etc. so people can gawk at your wealth (or foolishness at throwing your money away). Solar panels sit on your roof, out of sight out of mind. They pretty much do the same thing even if one is more efficient by a few percentage than the other. The only thing that matters is how many years the system will get your money back to pay off that initial investment and start saving.

Personally, I'd rather save the differences for the Sunpower and put that toward a mutual fund. When the time comes for replacement, I would use that money that I earn and purchase a newer and better model of the panel to replace the bad one.

Also, one thing that dealers never mention is that with E6 time of use from PGE, you can size your system significantly smaller than your annual usage and still be able to zero out your bill.

Now let me counter your point....why would someone spend a great deal more money for a Mercedes than say....a Daewoo? Reputation? Quality of manufacturing....reliability...etc...etc. You're advocating the same tired "a panel is a panel" rhetoric and its simply not true. You pay more for better quality, period. In a time when a lot of manufacturers are trying to run away from their own warranties and find excuses to not replace obviously underperforming panels, SunPower is one of the few that I've never heard bad things about in regards to them standing behind their products.


As far as solar goes, its no different than pretty much everything else, you get what you pay for. Seeing as what's happened with Suntech and some of the other Chinese companies, you absolutely couldn't get me to buy into any of their manufacturers right now. God forbid you have problems with your panels down the road...what are you going to do, sue the Chinese government who has a majority stake in several of these companies? Good luck with that.

[KRenn]

I have requested quotes from 4 other SunPower installers in my area tonight. In less then a week I should have some more numbers to go by. Right now based on the numbers provided to me by the SunPower installer, there really is not a financial incentive to go with them based purely on saving money at least in the short term. Sure as PG&E rates rise, I would be saving money but it would be a small amount over time and not really an initial savings at all. I also understand that they may be under promissing and over delivering. That's a great way to do things if the original offer is good enough to entice you to do it in the first place. Thanks for the info on the inverter size and your take on the Canadian solar quote.

microinv



I just read through Naptown's post and went back and looked at your Canadian quote.....did you by chance make a mistake when posting those numbers? If not the dealer made a HUGE one. If he's trying to use Enphase micro's with 300+ watt panels then he's either confused or an idiot....or possibly a confused idiot. The Enphase microinverter's have a specific wattage range that they can handle and 300 is way above it.

[cyph]

Now let me counter your point....why would someone spend a great deal more money for a Mercedes than say....a Daewoo? Reputation? Quality of manufacturing....reliability...etc...etc. You're advocating the same tired "a panel is a panel" rhetoric and its simply not true. You pay more for better quality, period. In a time when a lot of manufacturers are trying to run away from their own warranties and find excuses to not replace obviously underperforming panels, SunPower is one of the few that I've never heard bad things about in regards to them standing behind their products.


As far as solar goes, its no different than pretty much everything else, you get what you pay for. Seeing as what's happened with Suntech and some of the other Chinese companies, you absolutely couldn't get me to buy into any of their manufacturers right now. God forbid you have problems with your panels down the road...what are you going to do, sue the Chinese government who has a majority stake in several of these companies? Good luck with that.

I never stated a panel is a panel. I said that the bling factor doesn't matter when it's on your roof and away from view. Nobody will say, whoa, that's some nice Sunpower you have there. Sunpower is more reliable and has better service. I never discredit that fact.

What I wrote: Personally, I'd rather save the differences for the Sunpower and put that toward a mutual fund. When the time comes for replacement, I would use that money that I earn and purchase a newer and better model of the panel to replace the bad one. No warranty service needed if you can just buy your own replacement.

For the amount that's required for the Sunpower upgrade, he can buy a stack of 20 new panels of the non-Sunpower variety. Maybe it's just me, but I never buy extended warranties for cars either. You're paying money NOW to ensure that you don't have to pay later. If it fails, great you're covered. If it doesn't, you just wasted money on a warranty. In this case, the warranty is 5k, a substantial amount.

[KRenn]

I never stated a panel is a panel. I said that the bling factor doesn't matter when it's on your roof and away from view. Nobody will say, whoa, that's some nice Sunpower you have there. Sunpower is more reliable and has better service. I never discredit that fact.

This is absolutely your opinion and you are welcome to it, but please don't pass it off as fact. If there's anything I've learned, its that people looking at solar often times put a lot of value on aesthetics and minimizing the quantity of panels used in their system. There are states where the HOA's can prohibit you from installing solar and will often high aesthetic solar panels in order to install solar at all.

Also, the difference in regards to SunPower goes a llot further than just better reliability and service, you're getting better output overall, better product in low-light conditions and areas, better performance in hot weather and so on. There's good reason that in spite of a higher pricepoint they've been able to thrive while other companies have gone by the wayside. When you are unique, differentiate yourself in the market, make top notch quality products, people will be willing to pay more for that.

What I wrote: Personally, I'd rather save the differences for the Sunpower and put that toward a mutual fund. When the time comes for replacement, I would use that money that I earn and purchase a newer and better model of the panel to replace the bad one. No warranty service needed if you can just buy your own replacement.

And you're exactly right...personally you would, other people put more value into having something done right the first time and not having to go back and replace components and try to match panels to fit that particular system.

For the amount that's required for the Sunpower upgrade, he can buy a stack of 20 new panels of the non-Sunpower variety. Maybe it's just me, but I never buy extended warranties for cars either. You're paying money NOW to ensure that you don't have to pay later. If it fails, great you're covered. If it doesn't, you just wasted money on a warranty. In this case, the warranty is 5k, a substantial amount.

Your numbers are highly optimistic, there's not that big of a pricing gap between SunPower and other high quality panels. Anyways, we can agree to disagree, but if I'm making a long-term investment of 15+ years, I'm going to go for the highest quality product I can get. There's other manufacturers that I like, but nobody that I feel has the same combination of leading-edge technology, performance, reliability and quality workmanship as SunPower.

[Joker45]

microinv



I just read through Naptown's post and went back and looked at your Canadian quote.....did you by chance make a mistake when posting those numbers? If not the dealer made a HUGE one. If he's trying to use Enphase micro's with 300+ watt panels then he's either confused or an idiot....or possibly a confused idiot. The Enphase microinverter's have a specific wattage range that they can handle and 300 is way above it.

In my response to Naptown's post, I said I thought what she told me was 24 panels but I went and tried to find the exact number on her quote and it is not listed. So it was probably my mistake on the number of panels and inverters that I posted in my original. I went back and edited it to try and avoid any confussion. Thanks.

[Joker45]

Okay today I received another quote for a SunPower install.

(24) Sunpower E20-327 Panels
(1) SunPower SPR-8000m inverter
System Cost = $44,174
Tax Credit = $13,252
Net Cost = $30,922

DC STC Rating = 7800 kW

First yr production = 12,531 kWh
Current annual usage = 14,074 kWh

Gross Cost/kW DC = $5.66
Net Cost/kW DC = $ 3.96

Average monthly electric bill $272.13

12 Year 2.99% loan with 12 month S.A.C. $256
SunPower Lease $212

One of his selling points was using a SMA inverter instead of the Fronius one that it ended up being in the first SunPower Quote I got. He stated that there have been some issues with reliability with the Fronius inverters so he reduced my system size by one panel to make it possible to use the SMA/Sunnyboy/Rebadged SunPower inverter.

He also was talking about his companies "Elite" installation program. He said that with this installation all wiring would be run inside the house with no external conduit, oversized electrical wiring to help with power loss with both AC and DC voltage, a Shade Awning on the inverter, upgraded monitoring for both consumpion and production, Polaris wire connectors and if I buy the system a 20 year KWh production guarantee. He said it also included the 10 year extended warranty on the inverter for 20 total years of warranty and some other small stuff like no flex conduit used, 3 years of bi-annual panel cleaning etc. If you purchase the system, the Elite installation is an option that adds 8-10% to the purchase price. The above purchase price is with the Elite installation.

One thing that I found interesting was his lease price was $50/month less then the other dealer. That's alot of coin for almost the same system.

What are your thoughts on this quote and the "Elite" Installation?

2 dealers that I contacted that are SunPower dealers have not answered my request for a quote. Guess I will scratch them off the list...

[ajpslp]

Joker, I sent u a private message , check ur inbox

[Joker45]

Joker, I sent u a private message , check ur inbox

I don't have ten posts yet so I can't pm you back.

But, Thanks for the info but unfortunately I'm in California. So unless they also have an office here, I don't think I will be able to take advantage.