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  • #31
    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    FWIW, I've got a lot of respect for Butch's opinions and experience and I don't doubt his veracity for one second. I pay a lot of attention to what he writes and I take what he writes as from someone with experience and I take his stuff seriously.

    But also, and with no negative or personal inference intended or implied, I also take it as being from someone with skin in the game, directly or indirectly.

    Fair or not, perception is often everything and my perception is that his explanations of some perceived shortcoming of some aspect(s) of some SolarEdge product(s) most often comes off as more defensive than explanatory, almost as the resident apologist for SolarEdge.
    OK so I have no skin in the game. The company I worked for has gone under. We used to be sort of brokers for homeowners etc and design and contract with installers for the best system for the homeowner (we did all kinds of inverters and PV modules as well as on and off grid). We managed them after install as well and did full monitoring. My experience with monitoring is ongoing as I still have full access to all of our installs plus many many more that the installers did as some installers continue to give me full access to their accounts.

    I have basically retired but keep up with solar as I help a lot of people with their systems and a few start up installers.

    I hope that helps people understand my opinions on the equipment.

    In case others have not noticed either I prefer OutBack over Schneider as well and personally have Outback on my home. I think they have some room to grow though and their new inverter systems look promising.

    I am NOT a fan of Tigo, their tech is less effective in design and communication is strained with the equipment. I hope that SMA improves upon this soon and it looks like they have plans to do so. I think that the SolarEdge optimizer design is going to be the standard (MPPT with Buck/boost on optimizer ) and others will follow it moving forward. I know some here are not a fan of electronics on the PV module but I think with residential and small business it will be the standard (especially with the rapid shutdown requirements). I do NOT think SolarEdge will be the only game in town on that matter but they have a leading role now and are not standing still.
    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by motorcyclemikie View Post


      Butch that is pretty much a nothing Burger answer, virtually everything I own at my house is connected to the Wi-Fi even my sprinkler system is. how solaredge could be so neglectful in this aspect is really appalling they should be ashamed of themselves. they have been using carrier current technology for quite a while you think that they could have done something to communicate with their users using that at least.

      the only equipment I see for users is the SE1000 key, and that is limited in usage and functionality.

      solaredge in my opinion needs to come up to speed and come into the 21st century, Maybe I am expecting too much
      the SE1000 key is to put the optimizers in very dumb mode (turning them in to high end tigo optimizers) that will work with non-solarEdge inverters. It is not intended for end users.

      I am not sure what you mean about coming into the 21st century as they have some of the most advanced monitoring around . If you are just upset that they don't have a WiFi connection, well there are MANY WiFi standards through out the world. They used a third party card for it before but the new inverters have it built in with the only requirement to use it being the addition of an antenna. installers can and most do easily use any set of third party ethernet over PL or wifi bridge or better still ethernet cable to connect the inverters to the network as well as options for cellular or zigbee wireless gateways.

      saying to use WiFi directly is NOT an end all be all as many homeowners do NOT have wifi, or internet at their home. thats why when we were selling we would find out and get the appropriate internet or cellular connection for the customer. We have an off grid home with cellular connection too. There are options and whoever is setting it up has to choose the best, the simplest is the ethernet jack built into every inverter.
      This is NOT a SolarEdge only situation, we had just as much trouble getting Fronius, SMA, enphase, and outback inverters connected to the internet. Many didn't even have a built in method at all at the time, all monitoring was an option for some just a few years ago.

      I have a lot of home automation as well but almost none of it is connected to my WiFi but rather to a zigbee hub which is connected via ethernet. I try to limit wifi connection to mobile devices for security, reliability and bandwidth. My OutBack is connected via ethernet (actually the only choice for it) as well.
      Last edited by ButchDeal; 02-21-2019, 04:22 PM.
      OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

        OK so I have no skin in the game. The company I worked for has gone under. We used to be sort of brokers for homeowners etc and design and contract with installers for the best system for the homeowner (we did all kinds of inverters and PV modules as well as on and off grid). We managed them after install as well and did full monitoring. My experience with monitoring is ongoing as I still have full access to all of our installs plus many many more that the installers did as some installers continue to give me full access to their accounts.

        I have basically retired but keep up with solar as I help a lot of people with their systems and a few start up installers.

        I hope that helps people understand my opinions on the equipment.

        In case others have not noticed either I prefer OutBack over Schneider as well and personally have Outback on my home. I think they have some room to grow though and their new inverter systems look promising.

        I am NOT a fan of Tigo, their tech is less effective in design and communication is strained with the equipment. I hope that SMA improves upon this soon and it looks like they have plans to do so. I think that the SolarEdge optimizer design is going to be the standard (MPPT with Buck/boost on optimizer ) and others will follow it moving forward. I know some here are not a fan of electronics on the PV module but I think with residential and small business it will be the standard (especially with the rapid shutdown requirements). I do NOT think SolarEdge will be the only game in town on that matter but they have a leading role now and are not standing still.
        Butch: If condolences for your prior endeavor changing or congrads on your new found freedom are in order, you have them from me.

        Either way, thank you for the information.

        Regards,

        J.P.M.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
          I have a lot of home automation as well but almost none of it is connected to my WiFi but rather to a zigbee hub which is connected via ethernet. I try to limit wifi connection to mobile devices for security, reliability and bandwidth. My OutBack is connected via ethernet (actually the only choice for it) as well.
          Thanks for that view Butch, the real world likes Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. in your pocket you have one of the best field devices ever available in the world it's called your smartphone even have those in the middle of Zambia. I even have a $19 BBQ thermometer that has Bluetooth, I can watch my BBQ temperatures while I sit and watch my football game and drink a beer using Bluetooth. I can be at the liquor store buying beer and still be in touch with all my Bluetooth devices in my home via my smartphone. I wish people a lot of luck with a zigbee network, a Bluetooth interface wouldn't have killed solaredge to have added it, cabled interfaces went out right after disco did. I am sure that SE engineering staff knew that omitting Bluetooth was an error but they work for management and marketing, the main decision-makers.

          anybody want to buy my new SE7600H, it's brand-new without Wi-Fi, I want to buy a new one with Wi-Fi .


          Yes I know what the SE1000 key is used for, if I could find one for reasonable price I would already own one, it seems like they are few and far between.
          Last edited by motorcyclemikie; 02-21-2019, 08:13 PM.
          Those who do, do it!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by motorcyclemikie View Post
            Thanks for that view Butch, the real world likes Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. in your pocket you have one of the best field devices ever available in the world it's called your smartphone even have those in the middle of Zambia. I even have a $19 BBQ thermometer that has Bluetooth, I can watch my BBQ temperatures while I sit and watch my football game and drink a beer using Bluetooth. I can be at the liquor store buying beer and still be in touch with all my Bluetooth devices in my home via my smartphone. I wish people a lot of luck with a zigbee network, a Bluetooth interface wouldn't have killed solaredge to have added it, cabled interfaces went out right after disco did. I am sure that SE engineering staff knew that omitting Bluetooth was an error but they work for management and marketing, the main decision-makers.

            anybody want to buy my new SE7600H, it's brand-new without Wi-Fi, I want to buy a new one with Wi-Fi .

            Yes I know what the SE1000 key is used for, if I could find one for reasonable price I would already own one, it seems like they are few and far between.
            Sorry motorcyclemikie. I am a but more uptodate in comoouter tech then you might think, bluetooth anit wifi and zigbee aint wifi.
            Bluetooth is costly licensing and would do very little for solaredge.
            I don't know when you think disco whent out but it was before twisted oair was invented.

            Like your plan to put commercial optimizers in residential inverters, bluetooth would be less than useful and the SE1000 will do you little use. They are had to find as few people have a use for them so there were very few sold.

            and you are not sitting at the pub in touch with your bluetooth devices via bluetooth, you are in touch with your gateway device, via TCP/IP which is then gatewaying you to bluetooth.

            zigbee and z-wave are far better protocals for this as they are much more fault tollerant than bluetooth and there are many more devices that support them, plus more gateways and lower licensing costs.
            Last edited by ButchDeal; 02-21-2019, 08:34 PM.
            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
              Like your plan to put commercial optimizers in residential inverters, .
              Butch, I didn't mean to sound that way, I can tell you are knowledgeable.

              I intend to sell power to POCO, does that make it and me commercal? The optimizers above the P400 have a 85 volt output does that make them commercial? The P505 also has a 85 volt output is it commercial?

              I believe that's solaredge does not defined commercial and residential optimizers so that they can keep the spin on their business. does anybody actually know what commercial means in regards to this application?

              Those who do, do it!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by motorcyclemikie View Post

                Butch, I didn't mean to sound that way, I can tell you are knowledgeable.

                I intend to sell power to POCO, does that make it and me commercal? The optimizers above the P400 have a 85 volt output does that make them commercial? The P505 also has a 85 volt output is it commercial?

                I believe that's solaredge does not defined commercial and residential optimizers so that they can keep the spin on their business. does anybody actually know what commercial means in regards to this application?
                No it does not make you or the inverter commercial.
                The manufactur categorizes the equipment by thise names, doesnt matter if they call them blue inverters and green inverteres instead of commercial and residential. They have the categories and they say what works with what.... there is more different than just the voltage range.

                and BTW, net metering is not selling power.
                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                Comment


                • #38
                  you know one of our Southern California members on the board here had to replace his P400 optimizers with p505 to get his system to operate correctly. the main difference between the two optimizers is the output, P400 outputs up to 60 volts, while the p505 has 85 volts up to on the output. the P600 also have a 85 volt up to Output, and basically is just like the P400 with a higher output. are we getting any closer to understanding the difference between commercial and residential?


                  you know also this morning I called a big installer when I was looking for panels he asked me why I wanted 250 watt panels, I told him it better fit in with my plan to use my P600 optimizers, he replied oh then you're hooking two in series you'll want to use the 60 cell panels. doesn't this guy at a huge company know that this won't work because somebody said it won't, he was telling me what I wanted to hear so if he can find me the panel's I want at the price I want he's my man. if the P600 won't work then I could always fall back and use p505 which are virtually identical except for the voltage input rating which I don't care about anyway. What's the diff.

                  I also mentioned to him that it was to work in conjunction with my SE7600h GSM inverter


                  this is starting to look like a religious experience
                  Last edited by motorcyclemikie; 02-21-2019, 09:23 PM.
                  Those who do, do it!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by motorcyclemikie View Post
                    you know one of our Southern California members on the board here had to replace his P400 optimizers with p505 to get his system to operate correctly. the main difference between the two optimizers is the output, P400 outputs up to 60 volts, while the p505 has 85 volts up to on the output. the P600 also have a 85 volt up to Output, and basically is just like the P400 with a higher output. are we getting any closer to understanding the difference between commercial and residential?
                    There are many more differences than just the peak output voltage, stop being so pedantic. It is nice that you want to play around and incpvestigate things in yiur own but the issue is that you make claims based on your illinformed intuition ss if they are fact for other poor unsuspecting readers to fall into.

                    the p400 and p505 are both compatible with residential inverter lines thugh not with each other and not with the commercial lines which ioerate at higher voltages

                    All the optimizers run software downloaded from the inverters, if solaredge doesnt want the p600 to work with residential It will not work, thus is the nature of digital world.
                    Last edited by ButchDeal; 02-21-2019, 09:18 PM.
                    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                      All the optimizers run software downloaded from the inverters, if solaredge doesnt want the p600 to work with residential It will not work, thus is the nature of digital world.
                      yeah Butch I kind of figured as much I just wanted to kind of hear it from somebody that was "kinda" on the inside with solaredge. the price difference between the P600 and the P505 is virtually the same so that really won't impact my price Target. I can sell the P600's for what I have into them.

                      hey speaking of their downloaded firmware where can I get information on that?
                      Last edited by motorcyclemikie; 02-21-2019, 09:34 PM.
                      Those who do, do it!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by motorcyclemikie View Post
                        hey speaking of their downloaded firmware where can I get information on that?
                        Yeah that would be part of their proprietary corporate data....
                        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

                          Yeah that would be part of their proprietary corporate data....
                          You know that is why I want a SE1000 key, I believe I could hang my logic analyzer on it and take a look see what they have going on.

                          also Butch thank you for telling me I'm excluded from commercial, I wasn't sure if I needed to pull a DBA and a tax ID number to sell back to the Poco, do people claim their energy income on taxes?
                          Those who do, do it!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by motorcyclemikie View Post

                            also Butch thank you for telling me I'm excluded from commercial, I wasn't sure if I needed to pull a DBA and a tax ID number to sell back to the Poco, do people claim their energy income on taxes?
                            Again net metering is not selling, it is NET. If you have NEG (Net Excess Generaton) annually and your utility actually pays for it AND you have so much that you get more money then paid, then yes you would report it in your taxes. It would be a grossly oversized system that most utilities do not allow with net metering, so you might lose your net metering contract which would drastically reduce the ROI.
                            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Hi motorcyclemikie,

                              "anybody want to buy my new SE7600H, it's brand-new without Wi-Fi, I want to buy a new one with Wi-Fi."

                              So far, I have not seen any convincing evidence that the new, LCD display free, HD-series can actually connect to your home WiFi access point (even with an extra external antenna). It seems as this may be planned going forward, but not available yet.

                              My understanding is that the current "WiFi Capability" in these new HD inverter revision is very much like setting up an Alexa, Kasa, or Blink device. It has a small low power WiFi AP in the device whose SSID you join to wirelessly configure its settings. At which point one of the settings you would normally set is your home's SSID and password. Some of the documentation I have read from SE seems to suggest they are planning to get there, eventually, but are not there yet. But I could wrong.

                              To be fair -- I'm a very tech savy user -- IT, Automation, and Robotics is a big part of my professional career. But my home wifi is and has always been the biggest PIA of any IT project I've ever managed. I've completely scrapped it and replaced it at least 5 times over and it is still garbage for the most part.

                              From a reliability standpoint -- which is what you'd really want for all of your smart home and automation components, ideally, there's nothing better than Ethernet.

                              While Zigbee and the other non-WiFi communication standards due in fact have more robust and fault tolerant protocols, regrettably the RF spectrum they are forced to use (this goes for WiFi too) is overcrowded garbage.
                              Last edited by JSchnee21; 02-22-2019, 08:34 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JSchnee21 View Post
                                Hi motorcyclemikie,

                                "anybody want to buy my new SE7600H, it's brand-new without Wi-Fi, I want to buy a new one with Wi-Fi."

                                So far, I have not seen any convincing evidence that the new, LCD display free, HD-series can actually connect to your home WiFi access point (even with an extra external antenna). It seems as this may be planned going forward, but not available yet.

                                My understanding is that the current "WiFi Capability" in these new HD inverter revision is very much like setting up an Alexa, Kasa, or Blink device. It has a small low power WiFi AP in the device whose SSID you join to wirelessly configure its settings. At which point one of the settings you would normally set is your home's SSID and password. Some of the documentation I have read from SE seems to suggest they are planning to get there, eventually, but are not there yet. But I could wrong.

                                To be fair -- I'm a very tech savy user -- IT, Automation, and Robotics is a big part of my professional career. But my home wifi is and has always been the biggest PIA of any IT project I've ever managed. I've completely scrapped it and replaced it at least 5 times over and it is still garbage for the most part.

                                From a reliability standpoint -- which is what you'd really want for all of your smart home and automation components, ideally, there's nothing better than Ethernet.

                                While Zigbee and the other non-WiFi communication standards due in fact have more robust and fault tolerant protocols, regrettably the RF spectrum they are forced to use (this goes for WiFi too) is overcrowded garbage.
                                Yeah thank you JS, I pretty much figured our resident SE advocate was pushing a smoke & mirrors product blurb! In the computer biz we called that vaporware.

                                I have my HomeAutomation network running with my Google HAsst, I constantly had probs with my Alexa device and replaced it several times
                                Those who do, do it!

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