PV systems pricing dropping in 2023

[bcroe]

Fine, but the price of the 6061 weatherproof aluminum, electric wire, and
stainless steel metal and 18-8 bolts has something like tripled in the last
decade. Since those are the biggest costs of my ground mount, I do not
see savings. Bruce Roe

[DanS26]

Whenever I get into the DIY solar install discussion with interested people, I pull out my copy of the NFPA NEC code manual and explain that they have to follow certain code sections, etc. That's when their eyes glaze over and their thoughts of electric power savings get demolished.

There are a few hearty souls though that are undeterred and are willing to invest their time or someone else's expertise to get a maybe 8 to 10 year payback if ever, but they are few.

[Mike 134]

Whenever I get into the DIY solar install discussion with interested people, I pull out my copy of the NFPA NEC code manual and explain that they have to follow certain code sections, etc. That's when their eyes glaze over and their thoughts of electric power savings get demolished.

There are a few hearty souls though that are undeterred and are willing to invest their time or someone else's expertise to get a maybe 8 to 10 year payback if ever, but they are few.

Your payback statement is too general. Payback depends on initial cost, how much your utility pays importing and exporting KWHs, and if there are any REC programs you can take advantage of.

[DanS26]

Your payback statement is too general. Payback depends on initial cost, how much your utility pays importing and exporting KWHs, and if there are any REC programs you can take advantage of.

Totally agree....I should have mentioned my statement applies to Indiana and much of the Midwest. Net metering is rare and Net billing usually pays miserly. REC's almost non-existent.

[Mike 134]

Totally agree....I should have mentioned my statement applies to Indiana and much of the Midwest. Net metering is rare and Net billing usually pays miserly. REC's almost non-existent.

Here in Illinois with ComEd we are temporary fortunate. (their current business model for net metering is not sustainable). We currently get paid the same price selling KWs as we do buying KWs including distribution costs, and the current REC price is $82.28 per MWH.

[DanS26]

Here in Illinois with ComEd we are temporary fortunate. (their current business model for net metering is not sustainable). We currently get paid the same price selling KWs as we do buying KWs including distribution costs, and the current REC price is $82.28 per MWH.

Well you have a very good deal. I buy power at ~$0.13kwh and sell excess power at ~$0.055kwh. Ohio buys my SREC's at $2.50Mwh. I built my system DIY ground mount in 2011. Payback took 8.5 years. I purchased an EV in 2019 which greatly improved the system ROI since I consider the lower vehicle fuel cost to be a system benefit.

[bcroe]

I happen to think the IL net metering plan is best for the PoCo and me. I could
just be here using 5000KWh a year and paying the connect fee. They certainly
would not be happy supplying such a low quantity customer, though no one
would dare complain about my efficiency.

But instead I make enough solar KWh to completely avoid ALL charges of a gas
company connection, a lot of money. I still pay the PoCo connect charges. There
is no money exchanged for net metering, I just get to take back the energy when
I need it. So when peak demand hit in hot weather, I am powering all the AC units
on the block, saving the PoCo any transmission losses and helping to level the load.
I take back my credits at lower demand time, you could say also taking back the
transmission loss credit I previously saved them. IF I generate any surplus (I
generally do 5-10%), they get to keep it, and the losses I saved them, FOR FREE.

So I am generally helping the PoCo, they only lost the 5000Kh I used to use, and
without net metering, I would have further reduce that. Bruce Roe

[Mike 134]

When I mentioned the Illinois net metering rates as they are now are not a sustainable business plan it's because neither you or I install or repair those transmission lines, so we should only be receiving money for the power we generate and not getting credit for the distribution portion. But since they want to pay me for distribution costs also, I'll take it!!!

[DanS26]

Bruce, I don't know what those good old boys (and girls) at your local REMC POCO are smoking, but that business net metering plan is unsustainable for large adoption.

Good for you and hope they never wake up from their stupor.

[DanS26]

When I mentioned the Illinois net metering rates as they are now are not a sustainable business plan it's because neither you or I install or repair those transmission lines, so we should only be receiving money for the power we generate and not getting credit for the distribution portion. But since they want to pay me for distribution costs also, I'll take it!!!

Subsidies are widely used by business and governments especially to early adopters of the things they want to see more of......the trouble is there is hell to pay when the subsidies become unaffordable or worse yet cause unintended costly consequences.

[nerdralph]

When I mentioned the Illinois net metering rates as they are now are not a sustainable business plan it's because neither you or I install or repair those transmission lines, so we should only be receiving money for the power we generate and not getting credit for the distribution portion. But since they want to pay me for distribution costs also, I'll take it!!!

I used to think the same about the net metering system in Nova Scotia, until someone pointed out the value of the renewable energy credits. The are worth about 2-3c/kWh. Retail price for electricity is 18.5c/kWh including tax, and monthly meter fee is about $20. The economics are very favorable when rebates and 10-year interest-free loans are factored in.

http://canada.ca/greener-homes-loan

Earlier today I sent out a quote for a 10.5 kW residential rooftop system. The total installed price is C$14.5k, or $10.6k in land of the brave bucks.

[nerdralph]

It looks my comment about lower inverter prices was prescient.

https://taiyangnews.info/israeli-pv-inverter-maker-adjusts-q3-2023-guidance/

[bcroe]

The PoCo never pays me anything, and they continue to collect the
monthly connect fee that they were collecting before. Any subsidies
available come from the gov, not the PoCo. Meanwhile the PoCo is
benefitting my load leveling with reduced transmission losses, and
free gift of my annual surplus. I would happy to give the PoCo 10%
of my generation to sweeten the deal.

There is a limit to how much uncontrolled renewables can go on the
grid, but that is a different issue. Bruce Roe

[DanS26]

The PoCo never pays me anything, and they continue to collect the
monthly connect fee that they were collecting before. Any subsidies
available come from the gov, not the PoCo. Meanwhile the PoCo is
benefitting my load leveling with reduced transmission losses, and
free gift of my annual surplus. I would happy to give the PoCo 10%
of my generation to sweeten the deal.

There is a limit to how much uncontrolled renewables can go on the
grid, but that is a different issue. Bruce Roe

Do you know the uptake for that net metering deal for your membership? I suspect it is less than 2%. If higher than 5% then I would guess that the non-participants would have to chip in for higher rates to provide for that subsidy. Just no way that load leveling and reduced transmission losses would cover the power purchases to provide for the nighttime uses for the subsidy.

The scheme only works if there is a small uptake.

[bcroe]

Do you know the uptake for that net metering deal for your membership? I suspect it is less than 2%. If higher than 5% then I would guess that the non-participants would have to chip in for higher rates to provide for that subsidy. Just no way that load leveling and reduced transmission losses would cover the power purchases to provide for the nighttime uses for the subsidy.

The scheme only works if there is a small uptake.

I do not know what 2% uptake means. What subsidy are you talking about?
No one needs purchase extra power for nighttime or winter, I saved the PoCo
from generating those kWh, and saved the transmission losses they will later
use to power me in winter. Bruce Roe