Tiny House Solar, Wiring Inverter to AC Electric

[jflorey2]

My bad it is 14/3 wire I used. It has hot neutral. And ground

14/3 wire has four conductors, usually two hots (red and black) a neutral (white) and a separate uninsulated ground. If it's Romex (most common) it is then wrapped in a white plastic sleeve to hold it all together.

From what you've said, you won't need more than 14/2. (Which is probably what you have.) That's three wires - one white and one black (for power; hot and neutral) and a bare ground.

are you saying I should use all gfci receptacles?

You only need GFCI one per outlet string. All the outlets downstream of the first GFCI outlet are protected by the first one.

and what would protect the ac line that is hardwired to the inverters from surge?

Nothing. (Breakers don't either.)

What Mike meant is that regular breakers won't trip. Let's say you go with the Suresine 300, which is an excellent inverter BTW. The most power it will put out is 600 watts, which is 5 amps. So if you have 15 amp breakers, they will never trip, because the current will never get above 5 amps for any amount of time. And those breakers need 15 amps to trip.

So what happens? The inverter, rather than the breaker, provides the protection. In this case it's safe because 14/2 can easily handle the fault current that the SureSine can provide.

in this situation I'm relying on the gfci receptacles as the surge protection?

GFCI receptacles don't give you surge protection either.

Quick aside on terms - there are a few things you might be talking about when you say "surge." The electrical meaning of that is an overvoltage caused by generator overspeed or flyback voltage or lightning strike; this can damage devices that are plugged in. Surge protectors clamp this voltage to a safe level.

You might mean overcurrent, which is what circuit breakers normally protect against. In this case you are relying on the inverter for that.

You might mean ground fault, which is a situation where some current is returned to ground rather than the real return. To use your 14/2 Romex as an example, all the current flows through the two power leads - it flows out through black (hot) and returns through white (neutral.) None should ever return through ground. If some does, then there's a good chance that something is wrong. Maybe you grabbed the hot prong of a cord while you were unplugging it. Maybe you were trying to use a metal knife to get some toast out of a toaster and touched the heating element. And now some of that current is flowing through you to ground instead of through the neutral like it's supposed to. It's a tiny current - more like 15 milliamps than 15 amps - so a regular breaker won't blow. GFCI's detect that small amount of current and trip open, thus protecting the person with the knife.

[Mike90250]

Better practice is to use one GFCI as each outlet, and not daisy-chain them. That $15 is cheap, till you start searching for the one that tripped and killed the blowdryer, and find it downstairs in the laundry room.
But in a tiny house, where you only have 3 outlets and can see the GFCI outlet from all the other locations, it would be fine.

boy-sticking-knife-into-socket.jpg

[Falsa_Nominis]

GFCI is NOT always built into the inverter .

Read last line of post #1.

While you may know something about electricity, you obviously are new to solar power I've got 2 major brand, top of the line inverters, that do not contain GFCI in them, only internal DC overload protection

The only things obvious are: 1. Your inverters don't have GFCI. 2. You to jump to conclusions about people based on something other then facts.

[Mike90250]

Can I go from a GFCI outlet on the inverter with an extension cord to a junction box with the 2 AC lines, instead?

Not to code, you can't. Mobile GFCI inverters are not designed to wire into a house panel or J box.

Sure you can cowboy it, and it might work OK, but that is not to code, and we don't advocate bypassing code, cause when someone is injured, the lawyers pop up.

[Falsa_Nominis]

Not to code, you can't. Mobile GFCI inverters are not designed to wire into a house panel or J box.

Sure you can cowboy it, and it might work OK, but that is not to code, and we don't advocate bypassing code, cause when someone is injured, the lawyers pop up.

Which section of what code would he be in violation of?

[erblasco]

jflorey2

thanks for all your explanations, made everything very clear

[Mike90250]

Which section of what code would he be in violation of?

The section that differentiates between non-grounded inverters with GFCI, and mobile installations, and grounded inverters for fixed installations.

[Falsa_Nominis]

The section that differentiates between non-grounded inverters with GFCI, and mobile installations, and grounded inverters for fixed installations.

This made up gibberish. Feel free to prove me wrong by answering the question. If where real, it would be easy to answer the question. Stating what body of code and the section of that code is all that it takes.

[Mike90250]

This made up gibberish. Feel free to prove me wrong by answering the question. If where real, it would be easy to answer the question. Stating what body of code and the section of that code is all that it takes.

YOU answer my question, where does code allow mobile inverters with GFCI, to be wired to indoor outlets?
Gibberish my pinkie nail. If the OP is not disgusted by now, he should be.

Anyway, this article touches on it, devices must be listed for their intended purpose, mobile gear not listed for fixed install.

https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/code-corner-standalone-systems-and-nec?v=print

But I'm not going to plow through the volumes of the NEC (National Electric Code- if you need the body) to please you, no-name. The purpose of providing caution to the OP has been served, and he'll be able to confirm or deny how he wants to install his gear, original version against vetted advice.

[Sunking]

This made up gibberish. Feel free to prove me wrong by answering the question. If where real, it would be easy to answer the question. Stating what body of code and the section of that code is all that it takes.

What gibberish? You obviously do not know what you are talking about or anything about electrical codes. There are basically 3 types of inverters.

1. Toy or Junk Inverters with no UL listing. Easy to spot, all they have is GFCI receptacles for plug and cord connections. No means to be hardwired into premisses wiring systems like a Main Breaker Panel.
2. Mobile Inverters that bare the UL 458 listing. These inverters are made for RV, Work Trucks, and Marine application. THEY CANNOT BE USED in premises wiring systems.
3. UL 1741 listed Inverters made to be hard wired in a home premises wiring system. NEC requires any Inverter is a premises to have UL 1741 period.

To use an Inverter in a premises wiring systems must have a means to be used as a either Separately Derived System or Non Separately Derived System to comply with NEC article 250.28 and 250.30, 690.4, 690.35, 694.7, 690.60, 6904.60, and 705.4. In other words UL 1741. There has to be a means to make or break the connection between the Grounded Circuit Conductor and Ground. FWIW it is called a Transfer Switch.

Falsa Noass or whatever you call yourself reminds me of some other people here that have no biz answering any questions. You wanted code references there you go. Now get lost before someone listens to you and gets hurt because they are as ignorant as you dumb ass.

[Sunking]

Before the dogs of safety are unleashed on you, why does everyone go lean on panels. 2x 100 watt panels is a joke and major mistake. Grid tie panels are cheaper than battery versions. Panels are the cheapest thing you will buy. You need at least 1KW to live successfully. OK, I warned you and you are doomed to make the same mistakes as any beginner.

Yep like the idiots who use 1000 watts of panels on a car battery huh?

[Sunking]

OK lets get back to the OP.

First a 200 watt system is basically a good cell phone/laptop charger plus a couple of LED lights. Your system will never be able to handle any thing serious. A 200 watt system requires a 15 amp charge controller, a battery no larger than 12 volt at 150 AH, and an Inverter no larger than 500 watts and that is pushing it. Rule of thumb is the Inverter should be no larger than panel wattage. I also do not see any provisions for a generator which is a must have item for off grid. Without a genny plan on spending many days in the dark and replacing the battery once a year. You have no means to perform monthly battery maintenance or recover from cloudy days. You have made a plan to fail so far. Trust me you will learn soon enough, and your wallet will make sure you learn the lesson.

You need an Inverter made for off grid systems. Those Inverters come with three things you will need.

1. A Built-In Battery Charger from either the grid or GENERATOR you do not have.
2. Generator Input and ATS so you can charge your batteries and run off the generator
3. Can be hard wired to an AC Breaker Panel for your two circuits.

If you are NOT connected to the grid, the Tiny House has wheels and built on a trailer frame you can use a UL 458 Inverter made for RV's. All 458 types will be 12 volts with lower power ratings. Otherwise you will need to use a UL 1741 type Inverter which are mostly high powered above 1000 watts 24 to 48 volts.There is some 12 volt small power stuff. You need something around 200 to 500 watts maximum with your current 200 watt panel system.

[Falsa_Nominis]

The National Electrical Code is not a fedural law, it a set of guidelines. The legal requirements are set by the State, County or city. Often the local government adopts the NEC in whole or part as law, sometimes none at all, sometimes with conditions.

If the OP was in my county he could not be in violation because there are no State or county electrical codes for self-built, self-occupied units. I can do whatever I want, as long as I do not rent or sell the place ... If you want to put yourself at risk that your business but you are not allowed to decide the risk for somebody else.

The point is, there is no way Mike can say the OP is in violation or would be in violation because, none of us knows where the OP is ... Mike and Sun King included.

Mike: My handle on Solar Talk is Falsa Nominis not Nullum Nominis. If cannot get the joke, perhaps somebody else will explain it to you.

[Mike90250]

....Mike: My handle on Solar Talk is Falsa Nominis not Nullum Nominis. If cannot get the joke, perhaps somebody else will explain it to you.

I get it and almost banned it on the first post, as being too spammy / evasive.

Since I reside in the USA, I post answers that generally relate to my country. While the NEC is not a law, it is often adopted by localities as law, and if there is any failure resulting in injury or death, the NEC book is what will be used in courts to determine injury restitution or manslaughter or murder charges. Also, failure to follow local code will invalidate any insurance covering that loss, and likely entire policy cancellation. So, no, a Federal Swat team is not going to helicopter in and lock someone up. But when an injury or death comes up, the price will be steep.

If a local code officer becomes aware of a violation (or if a mobile home - the Highway Patrol ) they will issue an Order to Correct or Red Tag the tiny house, and enforce that with civil penalties or jail. So I don't mind you getting busted, but was addressing the OP because they knew nothing, and said nothing that they were exempt from NEC or laws of nature (which the NEC generally protects against)

[sdold]

The National Electrical Code is not a fedural law, it a set of guidelines

Don't give advice here that runs afoul of the NEC, because it applies to the majority of the forum readers and nearly all of the U.S. members.