Tiny House Solar, Wiring Inverter to AC Electric

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  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by Falsa_Nominis
    The National Electrical Code is not a fedural law, it a set of guidelines. The legal requirements are set by the State, County or city. Often the local government adopts the NEC in whole or part as law, sometimes none at all, sometimes with conditions.

    If the OP was in my county he could not be in violation because there are no State or county electrical codes for self-built, self-occupied units. I can do whatever I want, as long as I do not rent or sell the place ... If you want to put yourself at risk that your business but you are not allowed to decide the risk for somebody else.

    The point is, there is no way Mike can say the OP is in violation or would be in violation because, none of us knows where the OP is ... Mike and Sun King included.

    Mike: My handle on Solar Talk is Falsa Nominis not Nullum Nominis. If cannot get the joke, perhaps somebody else will explain it to you.
    Just ban this fool and get it over with. He is a moron. C'mon mods enough political correctness. just nuke the SOB and get it over with. No one will care or miss him. You have a good reason, HE IS DANGEROUS. Mike you already know he lied with his location, you know where he lives.

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  • J.P.M.
    replied
    [QUOTE=Falsa_Nominis;n374003]The National Electrical Code is not a fedural law, it a set of guidelines. /QUOTE]

    Correct. And why it is not federal law is covered and by the 10th amendment to the Constitution of the United States. So what ? Lots of things are not mandated or controlled by the fed. gov.

    Theoretically and as a practical matter, if something ain't covered in the Constitution, it devolves to the states, or the people.

    Besides, Who said anything about federal law ? I've been through this thread 2X looking and can't find such a ref. Maybe my Alzheimer's is acting up again.

    There are however, such things that are called National Standards. The National Electrical Code is one of them. Another one is the A.S.M.E. Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code. There are others. Such standards are administered (and internally enforced) by governing (not governmental) bodies made up of people knowledgeable in each particular area.

    FWIW, most National Standards have also been adopted by federal procurement agencies in one form or another, or by reference.

    Example: The Nuclear Regulatory commission is the national (federal) agency that licenses/oversees nuclear power plants. Having done it for a good part of an engineering career, I know that it is impossible to design, build, install and operate most any pressure vessel in nuclear service without conforming to the appropriate sections of the A.S.M.E. Boiler and Pressure Vessel code that pertain to Nuclear Service vessels. The NRC says so. The A.S.M.E. administers the code. Everyone uses it, but that does not make it a law, except by reference. Just makes it unsafe to not use it, and stupid besides.

    Many, if not most states and municipal jurisdictions in the U.S. (and a substantial number of other countries BTW), have adopted such National standards in part or in whole as recognized and orderly ways to keep things safe, orderly and consistent from one jurisdiction to another. Those actions are not however, mandated in a blanket fashion as part of the Code of Federal Regulations.

    That would be federal law.

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  • sdold
    replied
    Originally posted by Falsa_Nominis
    The National Electrical Code is not a fedural law, it a set of guidelines
    Don't give advice here that runs afoul of the NEC, because it applies to the majority of the forum readers and nearly all of the U.S. members.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Falsa_Nominis
    ....Mike: My handle on Solar Talk is Falsa Nominis not Nullum Nominis. If cannot get the joke, perhaps somebody else will explain it to you.
    I get it and almost banned it on the first post, as being too spammy / evasive.

    Since I reside in the USA, I post answers that generally relate to my country. While the NEC is not a law, it is often adopted by localities as law, and if there is any failure resulting in injury or death, the NEC book is what will be used in courts to determine injury restitution or manslaughter or murder charges. Also, failure to follow local code will invalidate any insurance covering that loss, and likely entire policy cancellation. So, no, a Federal Swat team is not going to helicopter in and lock someone up. But when an injury or death comes up, the price will be steep.

    If a local code officer becomes aware of a violation (or if a mobile home - the Highway Patrol ) they will issue an Order to Correct or Red Tag the tiny house, and enforce that with civil penalties or jail. So I don't mind you getting busted, but was addressing the OP because they knew nothing, and said nothing that they were exempt from NEC or laws of nature (which the NEC generally protects against)

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  • Falsa_Nominis
    replied
    The National Electrical Code is not a fedural law, it a set of guidelines. The legal requirements are set by the State, County or city. Often the local government adopts the NEC in whole or part as law, sometimes none at all, sometimes with conditions.

    If the OP was in my county he could not be in violation because there are no State or county electrical codes for self-built, self-occupied units. I can do whatever I want, as long as I do not rent or sell the place ... If you want to put yourself at risk that your business but you are not allowed to decide the risk for somebody else.

    The point is, there is no way Mike can say the OP is in violation or would be in violation because, none of us knows where the OP is ... Mike and Sun King included.

    Mike: My handle on Solar Talk is Falsa Nominis not Nullum Nominis. If cannot get the joke, perhaps somebody else will explain it to you.
    Last edited by Falsa_Nominis; 03-30-2018, 11:16 PM.

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  • Sunking
    replied
    OK lets get back to the OP.

    First a 200 watt system is basically a good cell phone/laptop charger plus a couple of LED lights. Your system will never be able to handle any thing serious. A 200 watt system requires a 15 amp charge controller, a battery no larger than 12 volt at 150 AH, and an Inverter no larger than 500 watts and that is pushing it. Rule of thumb is the Inverter should be no larger than panel wattage. I also do not see any provisions for a generator which is a must have item for off grid. Without a genny plan on spending many days in the dark and replacing the battery once a year. You have no means to perform monthly battery maintenance or recover from cloudy days. You have made a plan to fail so far. Trust me you will learn soon enough, and your wallet will make sure you learn the lesson.

    You need an Inverter made for off grid systems. Those Inverters come with three things you will need.

    1. A Built-In Battery Charger from either the grid or GENERATOR you do not have.
    2. Generator Input and ATS so you can charge your batteries and run off the generator
    3. Can be hard wired to an AC Breaker Panel for your two circuits.

    If you are NOT connected to the grid, the Tiny House has wheels and built on a trailer frame you can use a UL 458 Inverter made for RV's. All 458 types will be 12 volts with lower power ratings. Otherwise you will need to use a UL 1741 type Inverter which are mostly high powered above 1000 watts 24 to 48 volts.There is some 12 volt small power stuff. You need something around 200 to 500 watts maximum with your current 200 watt panel system.
    Last edited by Sunking; 03-30-2018, 11:02 PM.

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  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by PNPmacnab
    Before the dogs of safety are unleashed on you, why does everyone go lean on panels. 2x 100 watt panels is a joke and major mistake. Grid tie panels are cheaper than battery versions. Panels are the cheapest thing you will buy. You need at least 1KW to live successfully. OK, I warned you and you are doomed to make the same mistakes as any beginner.
    Yep like the idiots who use 1000 watts of panels on a car battery huh?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by Falsa_Nominis

    This made up gibberish. Feel free to prove me wrong by answering the question. If where real, it would be easy to answer the question. Stating what body of code and the section of that code is all that it takes.
    What gibberish? You obviously do not know what you are talking about or anything about electrical codes. There are basically 3 types of inverters.

    1. Toy or Junk Inverters with no UL listing. Easy to spot, all they have is GFCI receptacles for plug and cord connections. No means to be hardwired into premisses wiring systems like a Main Breaker Panel.
    2. Mobile Inverters that bare the UL 458 listing. These inverters are made for RV, Work Trucks, and Marine application. THEY CANNOT BE USED in premises wiring systems.
    3. UL 1741 listed Inverters made to be hard wired in a home premises wiring system. NEC requires any Inverter is a premises to have UL 1741 period.

    To use an Inverter in a premises wiring systems must have a means to be used as a either Separately Derived System or Non Separately Derived System to comply with NEC article 250.28 and 250.30, 690.4, 690.35, 694.7, 690.60, 6904.60, and 705.4. In other words UL 1741. There has to be a means to make or break the connection between the Grounded Circuit Conductor and Ground. FWIW it is called a Transfer Switch.

    Falsa Noass or whatever you call yourself reminds me of some other people here that have no biz answering any questions. You wanted code references there you go. Now get lost before someone listens to you and gets hurt because they are as ignorant as you dumb ass.
    Last edited by Sunking; 03-30-2018, 10:38 PM.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Falsa_Nominis

    This made up gibberish. Feel free to prove me wrong by answering the question. If where real, it would be easy to answer the question. Stating what body of code and the section of that code is all that it takes.
    YOU answer my question, where does code allow mobile inverters with GFCI, to be wired to indoor outlets?
    Gibberish my pinkie nail. If the OP is not disgusted by now, he should be.

    Anyway, this article touches on it, devices must be listed for their intended purpose, mobile gear not listed for fixed install.


    But I'm not going to plow through the volumes of the NEC (National Electric Code- if you need the body) to please you, no-name. The purpose of providing caution to the OP has been served, and he'll be able to confirm or deny how he wants to install his gear, original version against vetted advice.

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  • Falsa_Nominis
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250
    The section that differentiates between non-grounded inverters with GFCI, and mobile installations, and grounded inverters for fixed installations.
    This made up gibberish. Feel free to prove me wrong by answering the question. If where real, it would be easy to answer the question. Stating what body of code and the section of that code is all that it takes.
    Last edited by Falsa_Nominis; 03-30-2018, 02:52 PM.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Falsa_Nominis
    Which section of what code would he be in violation of?
    The section that differentiates between non-grounded inverters with GFCI, and mobile installations, and grounded inverters for fixed installations.

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  • erblasco
    replied
    jflorey2

    thanks for all your explanations, made everything very clear

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  • Falsa_Nominis
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250

    Not to code, you can't. Mobile GFCI inverters are not designed to wire into a house panel or J box.

    Sure you can cowboy it, and it might work OK, but that is not to code, and we don't advocate bypassing code, cause when someone is injured, the lawyers pop up.
    Which section of what code would he be in violation of?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90250
    replied
    Can I go from a GFCI outlet on the inverter with an extension cord to a junction box with the 2 AC lines, instead?
    Not to code, you can't. Mobile GFCI inverters are not designed to wire into a house panel or J box.

    Sure you can cowboy it, and it might work OK, but that is not to code, and we don't advocate bypassing code, cause when someone is injured, the lawyers pop up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Falsa_Nominis
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250

    GFCI is NOT always built into the inverter .
    Read last line of post #1.

    While you may know something about electricity, you obviously are new to solar power I've got 2 major brand, top of the line inverters, that do not contain GFCI in them, only internal DC overload protection
    The only things obvious are: 1. Your inverters don't have GFCI. 2. You to jump to conclusions about people based on something other then facts.

    Leave a comment:

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