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  • #46
    Way more than a installer error. Nothing about your system was done correctly and the operator has no clue how to operate the system. You cannot go off-grid and be clueless ojn how everything operates. You especially have to know batteries inside and out. Or else you get what you got.

    Example Red Flags as soon as you said you had 6000 watts on 24 volt batteries. Why do we know that is a problem, real simple the largest charge controler made is 80 amps. 80 amp charge controllers have the following power inputs vs battery voltage.

    1000 watts @ 12 volts
    2000 watts @ 24 volts
    4000 watts @ 48 volts
    6000 watts @ 60 volts.

    The math is real damn simple 6th grade stuff with very easy formulas. Example how many watts can a 80 amp controller handle Watts = Current x Battery Voltage. Try it out with your 24 volt 60 amp Controller. 60 Amps x 24 volts = 1440 watts. So what is your problem with a 6000 watt panel, 24 volt battery, and 60 Amp Controller? I will tell you since you cannot do simple math 6000 watts does not equal 1440 watts. You are missing 6000 - 1440 watts = 4560 watts

    More simple math To find how much current a given wattage into a given battery voltage is terrible complicated. Amps = Panel Wattage / Battery Voltage. Try it with what you have and tell us what is wrong. 6000 watts / 24 volts = 250 Amps. Your controller is a 60 amp controller. Is that a problem or not?

    Battery Capacity takes 16 years of formal education in the USA or a 5th grader in any other country Watt Hours = Battery Voltage x Amp Hours. Try yours on for size 24 volts x 830 AH = 19,920 Watt Hours. You should use no more than 4000 watt hours in a day and never ever more than 10,000 watt hours before a complete recharge.

    So do some more hard math Watt Hours = Watts x Hours. That takes 20 years of school. So if you rload is 3000 watts and your daily limit is 4000 wat hours gives you at most 4000 / 3000 = 1.3 hours run time a day. You are trying to run 5 to 8 hours. Your battery was dead after 19.920 wh / 3000 wh = 6.6 hours. Completely discharged beyond the point of NO RETURN. Yes you abused the crap out of your batteries.

    No one can fix your problem, it was broke before you ever turned it on. You got away with it during longer days of Summer and Fall with no heat demand. You pushed it over the cliff from ignorance and idiots who designed and installed the system.

    Dude I am just the messenger, You need a complete new system. Only thing you have that can be reused is the panels. That is you problem we cannot fix it nor can Tech Support. I suggest you educate yourself real fast. Start with the Stickies. When you replace the batteries get FLA batteries as they cost half a smuch and last twice as long as AGM. With FLA you can measure the specific gravity and actually tell what the real SOC is.
    MSEE, PE

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
      blah, blah, your system sucks, blah, blah, you're ignorant, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
      I went over the entire system, part number by part number with the Magnum tech. She pointed out that the solar charger jumpers had been set wrong but when I specifically asked her about whether the panels were too much for the system, she said no.

      Ur a schitty messenger, who has drawn a ton of conclusions before knowing all the facts. So again, I ask, go find someone else to troll. Or go out, get some fresh air, get laid, or whatever is necessary to get the huge chip on your shoulder delt with.

      Here's my charge controller btw, of which I have 2 of. It says it can handle up to 6600w of solar. It must be lying.
      https://www.altestore.com/store/char...Lh4aAsJv8P8HAQ
      Last edited by Jabroni; 01-11-2017, 11:16 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Sunking,
        Jabroni has written asking the moderators to inform you he no longer wishes your advice.

        Jabroni
        Sorry you think Sunking is harrassing you. Actually, he's being kind, but he's been told you wishes to not comment on your thread.

        And so, I will close the thread, there seems to be no new information to add to it. If something else comes up Jabroni, feel free to start a new thread,
        Moderator
        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment


        • #49
          OK, I may have been hasty closing this thread - Flame On!
          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jabroni View Post
            Here's my charge controller btw, of which I have 2 of. It says it can handle up to 6600w of solar. It must be lying.
            I agree with you 100%, you are lying. Your story has changed. You went from a single 60 amp charge controller to 2 100 amp charge controllers. Which one was the lie? Garbage in, Garbage out.

            Makes no difference, if your so called pro knew anything about what they were doing would never have used 24 volt battery for a real damn good reason. If they would have used 48 volt battery would have only required 1 controller not two. They screwed you. What is laughable and proves the point is you have or claim to have 8 6-volt batteries configured as 24 volts. To get 24 volts requires two parallel strings. Put all 8 in series and you have 48 volts.

            You also misinterpreted what Magnum told you. The controller can input over sized array up to 6600 watts. It does not output 6600 watts at 48 volts. Try reading the manual sometime. It outputs up to 100 Amps. Again Power = Volts x Amps. So do a little math fun and educate yourself. Try 100 amps x 24 volts = 2400 watts. You have two controllers so 200 amps x 24 volts = 4800 watts from your 6000 watt panel. Sure you can put 6600 watts of panels on the input as long as you are good with throwing 1200 watts away. To get the mising 1200 watts will cost you another controller. You pro installer should have told you that.

            Lastly I can reply to your post and there is not a damn thing you can do about it. Whine all you want. Bottom line is you destroyed your batteries from abuse and ignorance. You cannot hammer the batteries as you have and get away with it for long. It is not only me telling you that, everyone has told you that. I do this for a living professionally for 35 years.
            Last edited by Sunking; 01-13-2017, 12:34 AM.
            MSEE, PE

            Comment


            • #51
              Jabroni you might think I am being hard on you. Perhaps, but only to get your attention. I can help you, but dude you have to listen and more importantly learn. You cannot go off-grid without knowing much about power and batteries. Otherwise you get what you ask for and exactly what has happened to you. Screwed. The math is really 5th grade stuff and easy to understand. First lesson is batteries DO NOT TOLERATE abuse or ignorance. Especially AGM batteries. AGM batteries cost twice as much and last half as long as FLA. Meaning they cost 400% more then FLA

              There is a way to fix your issues. First thing is find a reputable Solar Installer who knows what they are doing, and educate yourself so you know when something is wrong and can take action immediately.

              Allow me to explain a couple of things. First step is you MUST determine your worse case daily Watt Hour consumption. No one and I mean no one can do that for you.

              Watt Hours = Watts x Hours.

              Example that 3000 watt eater of a heater you use turned on for say 6 hours consumes 3000 watts x 6 hours = 18,000 watt hours or 18 Kwh, about $1,80 worth of electricity. Just like if you make $10/hour, how long do you have to work to make $100. A fifth grader can do that.

              So once you have figured out your worse case power useage, you then calculate the battery capacity to do the job. Again that is super simple. You size the battery to last you 5 days or discharged 20% per day. You do this so your battery last at least 5 years and to cover your but for cloudy days. Only 3 days are useable until you hit 50% discharged and forced to go on Generator to recharge. OK Once you have a Daily Watt Hours your Battery Capacity = 5 days x Daily Capacity. Want to run that Heater 6 hours a day plus whatever else you need is say 20,000 watt hours (20 Kwh). Battery Capacity = 20,000 watt hours x 5 days = 100,000 watt hours. To find the AH capacity is done later once you know what battery voltage is used.

              AH = Watt Hours / Battery Voltage. See that is simple. The rest is just that easy.

              Next is find the panel wattage required to provide you with your daily Watt Hour consumption In this example we know it is 20,000 watt hours. To do this we have to find the Sun Hours for the shortest Winter months of December and January. That depends on your location and is super easy to find. So Let's assume ou live in the south where winter Sun Hours are plentiful in winter of 4 Sun Hours. So lets start. First we need a correction factor to account for all the system losses. With a MPPT controller, battery, wiring, and Inverter system efficiency is 67%. You have to account for that. So the panels need to generate 20,000 watt hours plus 1.5 times more. You can work that 1 of 2 ways. Either 20,000 / .67 or 20,000 x 1.5. Either Way you get 30,000 watt hours. All we have to do now is factor out Hours and that leaves us with the Watts. Watts = Watt Hours / Sun Hours. So 30,000 Watt Hours / 4 Sun Hours = 7500 Watts. Now in this example we know it will take a 7500 watt panel, and a battery capacity of 100,000 Watt Hours. Time to select Battery Voltage and Charge Controller Amps.

              OK you already have 2-100 Amp Charge Controllers which was a mistake because your pro selected the wrong battery voltage of 24 volts. At 6000 watts requires 3 controllers. Easy peazy fix, use a higher battery voltage so it only requires 1 Expensive controller rather than 2 or 3 controllers. So lt's go with a single controller, one of your 100 Amp Controllers. So how do we find the right battery voltage. Real darn simple we already know the panel wattage and the controller maximum current. Again the math is real simple Volts = Wattage / Amps. So 7500 watts / 100 Amps = 75 volts. OK there is no such thing as a 75 volt battery/ We have to work in units of 12 volts. 72 volt battery will work because a 72 volt battery is actually operates at 75.6 volts. Now we got a problem, good luck finding a 72 Volt battery charger for the genny and Inverter. Not going to happen, so what can we do. Well since your needs are so high is really beyond any single Controller, So we lower the battery voltage to a common used voltage of 48 volts and use your second controller. To do that means we have to break up the 7500 watt panel into two separate arrays of 3750 watts and each array using its own Controller charging a common battery. Really the only option in this example.

              OK time to find the battery Amp Hour capacity required at 48 volts. Again simple. AH = Watt Hours of Battery Capacity / Battery Voltage. 100,000 Watt Hours / 48 volts = 2083 AH a huge $20,000, 6000 pound gorilla you get to replace every 5 years. Take note here you have a 24 volt 830 AH battery. How much capacity is that? Remember the simple formula? Watt Hours = Battery Voltage x Amps Hours. So 24 volts x 830 AH = 19,920 Watt Hours. That means your batteries are only really capable of proving you roughly 5 Kwh per day and you are demanding 20,000 watt hours or more per day. Do you see a problem?

              I do lots of problems with what you have, and there is one good solution that will work:

              1. Quit using Solar and battery power for heat. Use Propane for heat, cooking, and hot water.
              2. Redesign your system and use 48 volt battery which means a new 48 volt Inverter.
              3. Sell one of your 100-Amp Controllers, you wil not need two once you take heat, hot water, and cooking out of the picture. LPG cost will be dirt cheap.
              4. Sell off 1000 watts of your panels, you will not need them once you remove all that heat load. That leaves you 5000 watts and that is way more than you will need.
              5. Replace your batteries. With 5000 watts of power, and 100 amp controller will require a minimum 48 volt 600 AH battery. They need to be that large with 100 Amps of Charge Current so you do not cook them while charging. Take note right now your batteries are way to small with 200 amps of charge current. Keep the battery charge current between C/10 and C6. All that means is where C = Battery AH capacity divided by a 10 or 6 hour charge rate. Example a 600 AH battery should be charged with no less than C/10 or 600 AH / 10H = 60 amps, and no higher than C/6 or 600AH / 6 Hours = 100 amps.

              Current with 200 amps on your existing 830 amps is to much at 830 AH / 200 Amps = C/4.15.

              Keep reading this until you understand, then see what your pro did to you.. He screwed and tattooed you blue. You allowed that to happen and no one to blame but yourself, not the messenger.

              Good Luck
              MSEE, PE

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                Jabroni you might think I am being hard on you. Perhaps, but only to get your attention.
                U got my attention. And made it abundantly clear how abrasive u are and how poor u are at helping people.


                I can help you,

                No u can't

                - Ur too busy trying to prove how smart u are and how smart I am not.
                - U haven't the slightest clue what my facility needs in terms of power
                - I don't want your help

                You cannot go off-grid without knowing much about power and batteries.
                Sure u can. Hire quality installers.

                I hired the wrong installer. Pretty simple.

                If i buy a car that's a lemon, Im not mad that I don't know how to fix it. Im mad at the dealership. Professionals have to be able to do their jobs.

                There is a way to fix your issues.
                Yep. On it already.
                Allow me to explain a couple of things.
                Nope. U had ur chance on page one. And multiple times after. Move on. I don't care for your explanations.


                A fifth grader can do that.
                Have you ever worked with 5th graders? For someone that references them as much as u do, maybe u should go get some training on communication & teaching youth. Passive aggressive jabs aren't exactly the best way to catch anyone's attention or teach them anything.

                3. Sell one of your 100-Amp Controllers,
                Would this be one of my 100-amp controllers that u were convinced didn't exist just a few posts ago?

                4. Sell off 1000 watts of your panels, you will not need them once you remove all that heat load. That leaves you 5000 watts and that is way more than you will need.
                U have no idea what I need. Because u don't ask questions before drawing ur wacky conclusions.

                I need more panels actually. I need to have appx 8k of power available on a hot sunny summer day. I was getting by with 4k watts. It's much cheaper to set up a 8k watt array of panels & 8k worth of inverter for float usage in summer months than a battery bank that (a) will never get charged due to my loads and (b) last 12 hrs a day with 6000w loads on it.

                Replace your batteries.
                I will. Once it's proven they are toast. There are still more likely possibilities as to the issue at the moment. And both account for the coincidence of the AGS being installed.

                I spent 2 hrs on the phone with Magnum tech support. They went over my entire system with me. They found 4 major setup errors that we addressed and they didn't give me the impression my situation was as dire as ur convinced it is. In fact, Ive spoken to 2 electricians, 1 generator expert, and 3 solar companies. Not a single one made any of the suggestions you have. They did find errors in the setup tho. And we might have found the issue. I'll know exactly after a site visit.

                Keep reading this until you understand,
                Follow ur own advice when I say this, ur a dik. I don't want ur "help". Move on to troll someone else.


                He screwed and tattooed you blue.
                Thx for making that clear for the 46th time.

                You allowed that to happen and no one to blame but yourself, not the messenger.
                I blame the the "messenger" for being a clown. Not for any of the issues Im having with my solar. I put that blame on the "professionals" that were supposed to design & install it properly.

                The only difference between u and I is I know how little I know about my solar system.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Jabroni

                  The problem I see is that you got your feelings hurt because someone told you (while maybe a little gruff) the truth and you got ripped off by a solar sales company for a system that was not designed correctly.

                  So your choice is to find a way to fix the system or take your lumps and admit you were wrong to trust that company.

                  Remember a company will say anything to convince their customer that they sold you a great thing instead of admitting they screwed up.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    Jabroni

                    The problem I see is that you got your feelings hurt because someone told you (while maybe a little gruff) the truth and you got ripped off by a solar sales company for a system that was not designed correctly.
                    me getting ripped off by my solar company is nothing I didn't already know prior to coming on this forum.

                    The fact that me getting ripped off is the focal point some of y'all want to drive home is the thing I find odd.

                    A lot of the comments are hell bent on proving the system is so flawed that it doesnt work. Yet the system has worked, just fine.

                    Very little focus has been on fixing the problem that occurred after the AGS was installed. That hasnt been the case with the other avenues Ive gone for help and Ive made progress on figuring out the problem.

                    So your choice is to find a way to fix the system or take your lumps and admit you were wrong to trust that company.
                    Wrong to trust a professional to do their jobs?

                    Are u one of those types who refuses to hire lawyers and only represents himself in court? ?

                    Remember a company will say anything to convince their customer that they sold you a great thing instead of admitting they screwed up.
                    Go back and read my first post in this thread. What gave you the impression I wasnt fed up with the idiots who installed my system? There's nothing u can say about them that is worse than Ive already said to them. Prior to coming on a forum for assistance.

                    But again, it's odd that this is the point u want to drive home as if I don't already know what dummies the installers were. If I didnt suspect they were hacks, I'd have already bought new batteries from them.

                    Which I may add, would not have fixed the issue. The problem would've persisted, not because it's a 24v system. There have been several issues that were discovered in the system (none of which were suggested here) that have already made a huge improvement in performance and getting things back to what I was used to experiencing.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jabroni View Post

                      me getting ripped off by my solar company is nothing I didn't already know prior to coming on this forum.

                      The fact that me getting ripped off is the focal point some of y'all want to drive home is the thing I find odd.

                      A lot of the comments are hell bent on proving the system is so flawed that it doesnt work. Yet the system has worked, just fine.

                      Very little focus has been on fixing the problem that occurred after the AGS was installed. That hasnt been the case with the other avenues Ive gone for help and Ive made progress on figuring out the problem.



                      Wrong to trust a professional to do their jobs?

                      Are u one of those types who refuses to hire lawyers and only represents himself in court? ?



                      Go back and read my first post in this thread. What gave you the impression I wasnt fed up with the idiots who installed my system? There's nothing u can say about them that is worse than Ive already said to them. Prior to coming on a forum for assistance.

                      But again, it's odd that this is the point u want to drive home as if I don't already know what dummies the installers were. If I didnt suspect they were hacks, I'd have already bought new batteries from them.

                      Which I may add, would not have fixed the issue. The problem would've persisted, not because it's a 24v system. There have been several issues that were discovered in the system (none of which were suggested here) that have already made a huge improvement in performance and getting things back to what I was used to experiencing.
                      Ok I will lay off the condescending comments about your unfortunate sales event.

                      I am also glad that you understand just putting in replacement batteries would solve your problem.

                      Trouble shooting a problem is not easy when someone does not have the ability to physically see or investigate the system first hand.

                      I am not saying you presented your info wrong but a lot of people come into this forum and ask for help but provide only bits and pieces of the system and what is happening. They then get pissed off when we point out the truth of their actions. It gets hard not to get mad right back at them because they won't listen to reason.

                      So if we can get past the flaming outbursts and hurt feelings maybe we can help resolve the issue for your system and get it working properly.


                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                        Ok I will lay off the condescending comments about your unfortunate sales event.
                        They were never necessary in the first place.




                        Trouble shooting a problem is not easy when someone does not have the ability to physically see or investigate the system first hand.
                        Agreed 100%. Which is why I was so thrown off by the initial responses to my thread. They werent questions for more details.

                        I knew from the jump I wasn't going to be able to give enough info without my hand being held. I was expecting a lot more questions before jumping to quick conclusions tbh.




                        I am not saying you presented your info wrong but a lot of people come into this forum and ask for help but provide only bits and pieces of the system and what is happening. They then get pissed off when we point out the truth of their actions. It gets hard not to get mad right back at them because they won't listen to reason.
                        They get pissed off cause Sunking is a dik.

                        He's got quite the reputation in the solar forum community. He didn't disappoint here.




                        So if we can get past the flaming outbursts and hurt feelings maybe we can help resolve the issue for your system
                        Sure. As soon as the moderators respect my request and ask that Sunking find someone else to troll.

                        That said, I appreciate those that did try to help in this thread. Ive got people coming out to do a site check soon. I got some target areas that they'll be looking into. I'll post the results of the findings once this thing draws to a conclusion.
                        Last edited by Jabroni; 01-14-2017, 01:40 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Jabroni,
                          if you wish to add a forum member to your Ignore User list, go to your User Settings, and under the Account tab, it starts with password, the last item in that list is :

                          Ignore List
                          To block certain users' posts, enter their names into the ignore list.
                          and SAVE Changes
                          and you wont see any more posts from that member
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                            If you wish to add a forum member to your Ignore User list, go to your User Settings, and under the Account tab, it starts with password, the last item in that list is
                            Yep stick your head in the sand. What I cannot believe by his own admission he does not want or care to learn anything about his system. Can you believe that someone who lives off-grid does not want to know anything about his system. WTF is he asking questions for? Ignorance you can fix, but stupid cannot be fixed.

                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Wow, this thread is the most entertaining and educational I have read in a long time. I'm glad I have thick leathery skin! I am sort of in the same boat as the OP. (not to hijack this thread). Although the difference is, I did it to myself. I am going to do a thorough examination of my needs, and start my own thread.

                              Great Info.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Higher-Ground Farm View Post
                                Wow, this thread is the most entertaining and educational I have read in a long time. I'm glad I have thick leathery skin! I am sort of in the same boat as the OP. (not to hijack this thread). Although the difference is, I did it to myself.
                                Did you dump $30K into it with out asking any questions, trust a used care salesman to pick everything for you, or could careless how it works, operates or put together? I think not. Do not learn the hardway, educate yourself. Keep in mind anything you take off grid is going to cost you 5 to 10 times more than commercial power and rather you like it or not a new part time job for life with no days off. Never ever trust your salesman. You tell them what you want and shop around.

                                I can tell you where to start and walks you through the process. Read these stickies then you will have a fair idea and suddenly realize just how expensive it is. Once you read the stickies then you will be able to ask good questions and have some idea of what you are asking for. Like I said we can fix ignorance, be no one can fix stupid.

                                Off Grid Design.
                                Inverter vs Battery Size.
                                Battery Tutorial
                                Are You Sure
                                How To Kill Your Battery
                                How To Charge
                                Last edited by Sunking; 01-14-2017, 02:28 PM.
                                MSEE, PE

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