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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jabroni View Post

    Again, Im not using voltage to determine SOC. Did u not see the link I already posted for you?

    Here is the exact model I have. It has a SOC function on it. http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sit...Router_5x7.jpg
    Yep seen the Link and told me what I already know. It uses voltage to determine SOC.It works like any other controller with SOC whistle. It reads the battery voltage then spits out a number made from a table like this below. completely useless on a working system.

    Last edited by Sunking; 01-10-2017, 10:41 PM.
    MSEE, PE

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    • #32
      Of other note:

      When the installer had installed the geni auto start, he'd accidentally flipped the generator voltage switch to 120v instead of the 120/240 setting. And as a result, any time the generator kicked on the breaker on the geni flipped. This occurred maybe 4 or 5 times. I couldnt figure out the problem. I got the installer on the phone that night and after troubleshooting we figured out that was the issue.

      It's not possible that incident couldve been the root issue right?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
        Let me make it clear to all members as they will get a buzz out of this.Jarbon is not going to like this and clearly demonstrates he got his body shook and his money took.

        You ave 6000 watts of panels operating into a 24 volt battery. Who wantsa to tell him what is drastically wrong with his design He is not going to like to hear his 6000 watt panel has been reduced to 1440 watts max.

        Who wants to tell him he got robed?

        If I got robbed, so be it. Why you would take pleasure in it is beyond me.

        not sure if this matters, but I have (8) 6v batteries. Not a single 24v battery.

        And if my panels only put out 1440w max, then how am I able to put 3000watt loads on the system during the day and the system remain in float?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sunking View Post

          Yep seen the Link and told me what I already know. It uses voltage to determine SOC.It works like any other controller with SOC whistle. It reads the battery voltage then spits out a number made from a table like this below. completely useless on a working system.

          You couldve explained that a while back instead of being a dik. U automatically assume I know everything about solar that you do.

          Furthermore, if the controller was using voltage to determine (fraudulent) SOC then why isnt my SOC dropping as fast as my voltage?

          Maybe Im getting false voltage readings on the controller?
          Last edited by Jabroni; 01-10-2017, 11:45 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Jabroni View Post

            Ok. This is starting to make sense somewhat.
            I can tell you for certain I was never using up 95% of the batteries. They were dropped to around 50% only a few times. I generally started recharging them at 60-70%.
            And yes, he did not configure the absorb time. He mentioned that "mistake" yesterday. But again, that doesnt explain the batteries falling off a cliff instantly. They went from holding their voltage to not holding their voltage immediately after the autostart was installed. Not days later.
            Take your SOC meter and put duct tape over it , It is worthless. All of them are worthless, except the amps in/out totalizers. But still, refrigerators are sold in Alaska.

            I'm going by your loads and hours. Your batteries lasted valiantly , right till the misconfigured (missing) Absorb cycle, which should have lasted 3 hours,
            put the nail in their coffin . Without absorb, they never recharged much at all, Without recharge, they sulfate. End of battery, Then, a fully charged battery
            that collapses rapidly under load, is the classic example of sulphated,

            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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            • #36
              So do you ,in fact, have 6000 watts of solar panels charging a 24 volt battery through one 60 amp charge controller? That doesn't sound possible as you have a potential 214 + amps available If it is in fact that's what you have, your controller is limiting your charging output to a mere 60 amps.

              You mentioned it yourself you don't know much about this whole solar thing and that's what you paid the "pros" for. You really should be a little less argumentative and a little more willing to listen to what these very knowledgeable people are telling you. Plus they aren't charging you a dime for their time and their vast knowledge.
              2.2kw Suntech mono, Classic 200, NEW Trace SW4024

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Jabroni View Post
                If I got robbed, so be it. Why you would take pleasure in it is beyond me.
                I take no pleasure in it. I just wonder why you would cough up $30K on something you know nothing about or did any homework to protect yourself. To go off-grid requires you to know a lot about batteries and power, or else you end up where you are at now. Screwed.

                Your system failed for multiple reasons"

                Grossly undersized.
                Complete mismatched of equipment not made to do what you demand.
                Using battery power for heating, cooling, cooking, and hot water is a huge No No.

                You got away with it during the long summer days. When winter short days came, you lost 60% of your generation capacity Coupled by demanding 5 times more energy that your panels and batteries can deliver. You basically hopped in a car with a 1/4 tank of gas ham sandwich, and no money or credit cards for a 2000 mile road trip. You then drove 100 miles, ran out of gas and blame us for it.

                Got news for you. You own the problem and is yours to fix.
                Last edited by Sunking; 01-11-2017, 12:42 PM.
                MSEE, PE

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                  I'm going by your loads and hours. Your batteries lasted valiantly , right till the misconfigured (missing) Absorb cycle, which should have lasted 3 hours,
                  put the nail in their coffin . Without absorb, they never recharged much at all, Without recharge, they sulfate. End of battery, Then, a fully charged battery
                  that collapses rapidly under load, is the classic example of sulphated,

                  here's what doesnt make sense about that assessment...

                  (1) I started from a full charge after the auto-start was installed
                  (2) the batteries could no longer hold their voltage... INSTANTLY

                  or at the very least, the controller was reading low voltage and kicking on the generator instantly.

                  (3) I watched him take voltage readings of each battery and the results came back healthy


                  Im not doubting that the missing absorb cycle can cause the batteries to sulphate. What I dont think is being accepted, is that this issue was instant. Not after days or hours of abuse from the auto-start but instantaneous. I never had a chance to run the batteries down for them to not fully recharge. The autostart was kicking on constantly, and in turn, keeping the (fraudulent) SOC and voltage high.

                  Im wondering if there are settings that couldve been changed to give false voltage readings to the controller? Or if the auto-start could be causing false low voltage readings somehow? What the controller is showing and what the handheld voltage tester was showing arent corroborating.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by littleharbor View Post
                    So do you ,in fact, have 6000 watts of solar panels charging a 24 volt battery through one 60 amp charge controller? That doesn't sound possible as you have a potential 214 + amps available If it is in fact that's what you have, your controller is limiting your charging output to a mere 60 amps.
                    There is 1 Magnum remote controller

                    And 2 Magnum power track performance charge controllers

                    Originally posted by littleharbor View Post
                    You mentioned it yourself you don't know much about this whole solar thing and that's what you paid the "pros" for. You really should be a little less argumentative and a little more willing to listen to what these very knowledgeable people are telling you. Plus they aren't charging you a dime for their time and their vast knowledge.

                    Im not trying to be argumentative. Sunking seems more interested in proving that my system doesnt work (despite the fact that it has worked fine for 9 months) than actually listening to what the symptoms are and helping me diagnose them. I'd take him more seriously if he wasn't convinced that my system could only charge 1440w at a time, which is impossible considering the loads I could put on the system during daylight hours without the SOC or voltage dropping. Do u think I really want to get in a debate on whether my panels are only giving my system 1440w of energy? That has ZERO to do with the topic at hand.

                    I have little interest in arguing my charging output yet some of you are fixated on it.

                    Here's a fact: I was able to put 3000w+ loads on my system all day long during summer hours with the charge controllers sitting in "float" mode the entire time. So can we move on from that?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                      I take no pleasure in it. I just wonder why you would cough up $30K on something you know nothing about or did any homework to protect yourself. To go off-grid requires you to know a lot about batteries and power, or else you end up where you are at now. Screwed.
                      Have you ever bought a house? Did you learn how to do carpentry beforehand? Of course not.

                      I dont have time to micromanage every contractor I hire. I hire lawyers, accountants, builders for a reason. So I can make the most of my 24hrs per day.

                      To go off-grid shouldnt require that I become an expert in the field. I pay (supposed) "experts in the field" to come install what Im asking for.


                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      Got news for you. You own the problem and is yours to fix.

                      Thanks for that heads up. It was totally necessary. Since it's mine to fix, please leave the discussion and go troll someone else.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                        Take your SOC meter and put duct tape over it , It is worthless. All of them are worthless, except the amps in/out totalizers. But still, refrigerators are sold in Alaska.

                        Is the voltage meter worthless also?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jabroni View Post

                          Is the voltage meter worthless also?
                          Since you don't know how to interpret the readings - yes.

                          WWW

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wy_White_Wolf View Post

                            Since you don't know how to interpret the readings - yes.

                            WWW
                            Is the passive aggressiveness really necessary?

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                            • #44
                              As we say here - if you want to learn, you gotta' grow a thick skin, so don't take it personally.

                              AGM's - I love 'em. BUT you *have* to be on top of your game. If those cells aren't TRULY charged up to 100% often, then you are going to walk them down in capacity every cycle, and can be fooled by voltage alone.

                              Here is what happens assuming a perfect setup that only gets charged to 99% *capacity* each cycle:

                              1) You start out running from 100% to say 50% DOD.

                              But because you don't fully charge each cycle, your battery capacity is now only 99%, yet voltage wise while charging things seem fine.
                              More cycles without a full charge - 80% *capacity*.
                              Even more cycles, 75% and so on. Yet your SOC meter, based on voltage alone, knows nothing about capacity degradation!

                              Each bit that doesn't get fully charged over repetetive cycles, hard-sulfates, reducing the overall capacity little by little. What you are experiencing is not uncommon. Unlike a flooded battery, where a monthly EQ can kind of make up for the sins of undercharge, most agm's can't. And is the reason why an agm needs to be treated a bit aggressively in a solar setup. Ie, on top of your game.

                              And so on until failure. The other question to be asked is if prior to the autostart, was your charging setup (generator included), set properly and allowed to absorb down to .05C each cycle? Basically does it match what the Fullriver specs are, or was it a generic setup. Basically, what are the absorb, float, and absorb time (if listed) of both your solar CC, and that of your genny (were you using an external charger - and if so, what was it's settings?)

                              I bet not, and that long absorb is a huge waste of fuel.

                              In addition to this, AFTER absorb is done, 6 -8 hours of float is needed! Obviously one doesn't usually have the fuel / sun and time necessary to finish absorb, let alone this 6 hour post absorb float stage for an agm. Thus, if you do agm, you MUST be a bit aggressive without blowing the manufacturer's specs of course.

                              What I'm saying is the 9 months of everything working perfectly, actually weren't. Despite the followup additions by the solar company, the batts were already pretty much knackered.

                              ALL voltage / cycle charts from manufacturers for agm's are assuming perfect health, ie a truly full charge each cycle! If you don't do that, the truth is revealed when you do a capacity load test.

                              And that's the problem with AGM - unless you are totally on top of it, it is very very easy to make a mistake and not be able to recover.

                              BTW, you know that 5.9 to 6v as measured on your cells are pretty much toast and NOT good right? Even fullriver's charts show that in the what - 10-25% SOC range. That's bad.

                              There could very well be a shared responsibility component we are overlooking. Remember that this is all reverse-engineering - which is very hard to do at the distance of a forum.
                              Last edited by PNjunction; 01-11-2017, 06:35 PM.

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                              • #45
                                I appreciate the long well written post. I'll respond, and at the end I have more info to add as I just spent 2 hours on the phone with Magnum energy and they went thru the entire system and found MULTIPLE setup errors.

                                Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                                As we say here - if you want to learn, you gotta' grow a thick skin, so don't take it personally.
                                The irony? I think some of the guys in this forum need to go get some sun. Theyve been on the forums too long and forgot how you normally talk to someone face to face.

                                AGM's - I love 'em. BUT you *have* to be on top of your game. If those cells aren't TRULY charged up to 100% often, then you are going to walk them down in capacity every cycle, and can be fooled by voltage alone.

                                Here is what happens assuming a perfect setup that only gets charged to 99% *capacity* each cycle:

                                1) You start out running from 100% to say 50% DOD.

                                But because you don't fully charge each cycle, your battery capacity is now only 99%, yet voltage wise while charging things seem fine.
                                More cycles without a full charge - 80% *capacity*.
                                Even more cycles, 75% and so on. Yet your SOC meter, based on voltage alone, knows nothing about capacity degradation!

                                Each bit that doesn't get fully charged over repetetive cycles, hard-sulfates, reducing the overall capacity little by little. What you are experiencing is not uncommon. Unlike a flooded battery, where a monthly EQ can kind of make up for the sins of undercharge, most agm's can't. And is the reason why an agm needs to be treated a bit aggressively in a solar setup. Ie, on top of your game.
                                We'll get to this later in my post. The charge settings were not correct on install.


                                And so on until failure. The other question to be asked is if prior to the autostart, was your charging setup (generator included), set properly and allowed to absorb down to .05C each cycle? Basically does it match what the Fullriver specs are, or was it a generic setup. Basically, what are the absorb, float, and absorb time (if listed) of both your solar CC, and that of your genny (were you using an external charger - and if so, what was it's settings?)

                                I bet not, and that long absorb is a huge waste of fuel.
                                No. It was not set up correctly.


                                In addition to this, AFTER absorb is done, 6 -8 hours of float is needed! Obviously one doesn't usually have the fuel / sun and time necessary to finish absorb, let alone this 6 hour post absorb float stage for an agm. Thus, if you do agm, you MUST be a bit aggressive without blowing the manufacturer's specs of course.
                                So much for AGM's being "maintenance free".


                                What I'm saying is the 9 months of everything working perfectly, actually weren't. Despite the followup additions by the solar company, the batts were already pretty much knackered.
                                That doesnt explain the abrupt and coincidental fall-off-a-cliff drop in performance. That's what's got me perplexed.

                                I have no doubts at this time the batteries were being abused, by how I used them AND how they were set up. The fact that they all of a sudden failed to perform the day the auto-start was installed leads me to believe there is something else not functioning correctly.

                                ALL voltage / cycle charts from manufacturers for agm's are assuming perfect health, ie a truly full charge each cycle! If you don't do that, the truth is revealed when you do a capacity load test.

                                And that's the problem with AGM - unless you are totally on top of it, it is very very easy to make a mistake and not be able to recover.
                                Noted.


                                BTW, you know that 5.9 to 6v as measured on your cells are pretty much toast and NOT good right? Even fullriver's charts show that in the what - 10-25% SOC range. That's bad.
                                They were at around 6.2-6.3 and then with load down to 5.9-6.

                                Each battery is a 6 volt battery. Im not sure why they should be reading any different than that.

                                I have no idea if that is "toast". The installer certainly didnt say they were in need of immediate replacement. The only reason he was suggesting new batteries was because of the lack of actual performance. He couldnt find anything during his diagnosis that would imply the batteries were done.


                                There could very well be a shared responsibility component we are overlooking. Remember that this is all reverse-engineering - which is very hard to do at the distance of a forum.
                                No doubt.

                                Which is why I called Magnum and spent 2 hours with their customer support. I wanted to understand the auto-start better and what could be the issue.

                                We went thru every setting on the controller and also some of the solar charging hardware.

                                (1) they were the first person Ive spoken too to NOT dismiss my claims of the system not performing immediately after the auto-start was installed. They were very perplexed at the coincidence of it all.

                                (2) that said, they could not fathom how the auto start would have any effect on voltage readings. So that sorta scratched out the "shared responsibility components" theory.

                                (3) so then this is when it got "fun". We went thru all the settings on the controller and here are the mistakes found (some of which you already alluded too)...

                                - AGS stop was set to 28.8 (shouldve been set to FLOAT)
                                - Absorb was only set to 2.0 hours (shouldve been to 4.0 hours)
                                - and here's the REALLY big one, the BMK was set to 790aHrs (so the controller this entire time has been charging for a smaller battery bank than was already here and for too short a absorb time)
                                - and lastly, the jumpers on the solar charger controllers were set wrong, and were set for a much smaller solar array than I currently have


                                So yes, the batteries have been taking a beating. During the summer due to the jumper settings and since November when the generator was being used heavily since the absorb as set wrong. And apparently the entire time since the BMK has been wrong all along. Magnum had some settings and charging advice that they thought could try to salvage the batteries a bit but cleaning off the plates (forced charging) and so Im going to try it.

                                This is mostly a installer setup error, and the resulting damage to the batteries not being charged fully.

                                That said, Im still hung up on the coincidence of it all. The performance drop off was too sudden and was immediate after the auto start was installed. There just seems to be something else too it. Im not saying the batteries havent taken a hit. But if their is a problem related to the autostart, new batteries arent going to solve this issue.
                                Last edited by Jabroni; 01-11-2017, 11:20 PM.

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