Tesla announces "Powerwall" batteries

[DanKegel]

Oh, this?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1073289_tesla-battery-bricking-the-real-story-behind-the-post

That has nothing to do with battery lifetime under normal circumstances, does it?

[Sunking]

Ian I am sitting here at a hospital with my Grand Daughter and a tablet. If you really want to know it is easy to find. All 5 cases involve revolve around owners Bricking their batteries. They lost the case because Tesla makes no capacity claims. It is not hard to understand On the flip side Tesla has sued Edmunds and Top Gear reporting battery issues. Tesla lost. All very easy to find if you really want to know.

If you really think the battery is that great. Good for you go buy one. As for me I will stick with what I know works and proven to do so. From an economic POV Tesla is the looser here. There are a few batteries out there proven to have over 2500 cycles to 80% DOD with a rock solid warranty guaranteeing capacity retention of 80% capacity for $250 to $300 per Kwh price range.

In the meantime I am going to sit here and enjoy every moment I can with my Grand Daughter. Poor thing is going to be here in the Hospital for 4 more weeks.

[Ian S]

But we have an excellent track record from the EV division which has landed Tesla in court.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any lawsuits over Tesla's battery warranty regarding longevity problems. Do you have links?

[Sunking]

multiple people have asked for facts on this direct statement you made:



You continue to misdirect to electric motors and warranty information that is unrelated to the claim you make above.

are you lazy?

[SmartElectric]

You want the Waranty?

Multiple people have asked for facts on this direct statement you made:

Well not until you make a claim as thousands have found out.

You continue to misdirect to electric motors and warranty information that is unrelated to the claim you make above.

[Sunking]

Still waiting on the links about the battery.

You want the Waranty? Are you lazy? Source here.

Battery longevity is a subject that Model S owners and would-be buyers have an insatiable appetite for. After all the mega-sized lithium-ion battery is said to make up approximately 40% of the cost of the vehicle and serves as the main power plant for the Tesla fleet of vehicles.
Any damage to the battery pack that results in a catastrophic failure could deem any Model S and Model X inoperable, but is thankfully covered under Tesla’s warranty plan – or is it?
Below is a copy of the Tesla Model S Battery Warranty from the owner’s Quick Guide manual.

Battery Limited Warranty
The Model S lithium-ion battery (the “Battery”) is an extremely sophisticated powertrain component designed to withstand extreme driving conditions. You can rest easy knowing that Tesla’s state-of-the-art Battery is backed by this Battery Limited Warranty, which covers the repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Battery, subject to the limitations described below.

If your Battery requires warranty service, Tesla will repair the unit, or replace it with a factory reconditioned unit that has an energy capacity at least equal to that of the original Battery before the failure occurred. To provide you with even more assurance, this Battery Limited Warranty will also cover damage to your vehicle from a Battery fire even if it is the result of driver error. (Coverage will not extend to damage that had already been sustained before a Battery fire occurred, or to any damage if the Battery fire occurred after your vehicle had already been totaled.) Your vehicle’s Battery is covered under this Battery Limited Warranty for a period of 8 years or for the number of miles/km specified below for your Battery configuration, whichever comes first:

• 60 kWh – 125,000 miles (200,000 km)
• 85 kWh – unlimited miles/km

Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle, or ignoring active vehicle warnings), a collision or accident (excluding from Battery fires as specified above), or the servicing or opening of the Battery by non-Tesla personnel, is not covered under this Battery Limited Warranty.

In addition, damage resulting from the following activities is not covered under this Battery Limited Warranty:

• Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for more than 24 hours at a time;
• Physically damaging the Battery, or intentionally attempting, either by physical means, programming, or other methods, to extend (other than as specified in your owner documentation) or reduce the life of the Battery;
• Exposing the Battery to direct flame (excluding from Battery fires as specified above); or,
• Flooding of the Battery.
• The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.

NOT A BREATH ABOUT CAPACITY OVER TIME. ONLY DAMAGE.

[Sunking]

I don't think post count matters...

I've replied to you a number of times since I arrived here recently on this forum. I called out your factually incorrect analysis/claims and posts regarding automotive battery systems.

Don't let post count get in the way of learning something.

You have not made a factual point yet. What automotive battery systems? All I know about you is a Geek with an EV in Toronto.

[SmartElectric]

Tesla had to double down when both Edmunds and Motor Trend chronicled the replacement of drive units

Still waiting on the links about the battery.

Your attempt to misdirect to the drive system (electric motor) is sad and tired, and unrelated to battery cells discussed here so far.

[SmartElectric]

With only two post which one are you? What IEEE battery committee do you sit on?

I don't think post count matters...

I've replied to you a number of times since I arrived here recently on this forum. I called out your factually incorrect analysis/claims and posts regarding automotive battery systems.

Don't let post count get in the way of learning something.

[Sunking]

Is it possible to ask for a link to where these thousands of people are posting this information ??

Have you cruised Tesla Forums, Tesla own warranty, car testing agencies like Edmunds, Motor Trend, and Car and Driver? Tesla had to double down when both Edmunds and Motor Trend chronicled the replacement of drive units in their long-term test cars. The new warranty is the same as the old warranty, just longer. All it means is i twill not turn into a BRICK. There is no wording in regards to capacity.

I myself considered buying a Tesla Roadster back in 2010. After doing my homework my suspicions were confirmed. If you know something about Lithium batteries here are the questions you are left with after reading Tesla Specs and PR:

• What is the Nominal Voltage? Not specified?
• What is the AH capacity? Not Specified?
• What is the charge rate? Not specified.
• How does it interface? Not specified.
• Why such a low Specific Power in a Lithium of C/2 when norm is 2C and higher?
• Why such a low Specific Energy Density of 70 wh/Kg. Lowest of all lithium is LiFeP04 of 100 wh/Kg. Tesla EV's are 200 wh/Kg and slightly higher?
• Why such a low Energy Density of 150 wh/L when even the lowest LiFeP04 is 300 wh/L and the EV's are up around 600 wh/L?
• Why does such a low energy density battery required to have Liquid Cooling? Huge Red Flag most of you have ignored and likely do not want to know the answer to.
• How much Energy does the Liquid Cooling consume with pumps and fans.?
• Why does not Tesla imply what 10 year warranty entails or any useful details of its battery products? All one can assume it is the standard Tesla meaningless No Brick Warranty. That does not leave owners comfortable. Every battery manufacture worth mentioning will give you some amount of cycles over a period of time, to some DOD level like: 8 years, 2500 cycles, 80% DOD retaining 80% of specified capacity (Trojan Industrial Line). Nissan specifies 5 years, 50K miles, to 80% capacity. There is some meat on that bone to chew. Tesla implied warranty is dead silent.

[Ian S]

Is it possible to ask for a link to where these thousands of people are posting this information ??

In the off chance that you're holding your breath waiting for an answer, I'll step in and save your life! Frankly, Sunking worries too much:

Using data from 126 Roadsters driven a total 3.2 million miles, the study concluded that the typical Roadster would still have 80-85 percent battery capacity after 100,000 miles.

and

Based on 84 data points from the 85-kWh version of the Model S and six from 60-kWh cars, the study concludes that the Model S will retain about 94 percent of its capacity after 50,000 miles, with losses thereafter shrinking to about 1 percent per 30,000 miles.

That means that after 100,000 miles, the typical Model S is projected to retain about 92 percent of its battery capacity and range.

I'm not sure that many ICE cars would still be getting their full range after 100,000 miles.

[Willy T]

Do any of you know what Tesla Warranty entails? I did not think so.

But we have an excellent track record from the EV division which has landed Tesla in court. The EV's batteries are warranted for 8 years or 100,000 miles. Sounds great don't it?

Well not until you make a claim as thousands have found out. All Tesla warranty implies is the battery will operate the vehicle. It makes no claims of capacity or performance. Many Tesla owners tested this in court to find out even if your EV only goes 10 miles after a charge, it still works and lost their case.

Tesla even admits to get the claimed mileage requires you to replace the battery every year or every 25K miles whichever comes first, but at your expense, not covered under warranty.

On the flip side Nissan is better as they warrant their battery to retain 80% capacity up to 5 years or 50K miles whichever comes first. So far it has costed them a forutne in warranty claims with the first 3 model years.

I know a lot of you want to believe it, but don't let your blind passion misguide you.

Is it possible to ask for a link to where these thousands of people are posting this information ??

[donald]

Yeah, the 10 kWh number is probably only available for a small number of cycles,

Well yeah, 500-1000. The warranty will be prorated, and that will show the low end of the expected performance over time. They been building an upscale version of these packs for years, and have a great deal of data.

I expect these packs are priced at what makes sense 2-3 years from now. Musk want to justify rapid gigafactory expansion, and he wants the buzz.

[Sunking]

Do any of you know what Tesla Warranty entails? I did not think so.

But we have an excellent track record from the EV division which has landed Tesla in court. The EV's batteries are warranted for 8 years or 100,000 miles. Sounds great don't it?

Well not until you make a claim as thousands have found out. All Tesla warranty implies is the battery will operate the vehicle. It makes no claims of capacity or performance. Many Tesla owners tested this in court to find out even if your EV only goes 10 miles after a charge, it still works and lost their case.

Tesla even admits to get the claimed mileage requires you to replace the battery every year or every 25K miles whichever comes first, but at your expense, not covered under warranty.

On the flip side Nissan is better as they warrant their battery to retain 80% capacity up to 5 years or 50K miles whichever comes first. So far it has costed them a forutne in warranty claims with the first 3 model years.

I know a lot of you want to believe it, but don't let your blind passion misguide you.

[DanKegel]

Apparently both systems weigh the same so could the difference be in DOD?

Yeah, the 10 kWh number is probably only available for a small number of cycles,