My New Favorite Battery.

[Willy T]

Two caveats on the RE line: 1) Keeping them cool, and 2) Proper maintenance. If either is lacking, these will get no where near rated life. But these aren't too pricey either for a more premium battery.
Trojan's watering system is interesting too. I like how they seem to be focused on real user needs.

Great advise for any FLA Battery.

[bberry]

Two caveats on the RE line: 1) Keeping them cool, and 2) Proper maintenance. If either is lacking, these will get no where near rated life. But these aren't too pricey either for a more premium battery.
Trojan's watering system is interesting too. I like how they seem to be focused on real user needs.

[Willy T]

Smart Carbon as opposed to Dumb Carbon that has been added to grid / plate paste ever since the last solid plate battery was made. Interstate Battery has made some pure lead plates in some batteries in the last couple of years though. Whatever Smart Carbon is, it requires some charging voltage differences from their old batteries since the rate of charge acceptance is different.

Carbon is added to the expander to improve the conductivity of the active material. It assists in the initial formation and improves performance during deep discharges where the concentration of highly resistant lead sulfate is high. It is usually added to the expander formula in an amount equal to the lignosulfonate. (E. Willihnganz. Transactions of the Electrochemical Society, 92, (1947)

[Sunking]

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been crusing the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

You should not have any problems finding them as they have been on the market for some time now. Smart Carbon is the Marketing name bu tyou have to look for the product number. Here are some that I know of

T-105RE
LR16RE-A
LR16RE-B
L16RE-2V
IND9-6V
IND13-6V
IND17-6V

Those are most of them. Just look in Trojans website IND line up

[Bala]

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been crusing the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

If you want some ballpark prices, find the model battery you want then google it, like this example

"IND27-2V Deep-Cycle Flooded price"

[alterego]

I have been watching a particular battery that has been undergoing IEC 61427 since 2010 and as of today has just over 2500 cycles which is almost unheard of. IEC 61427 is a grueling test protocol for testing RE batteries using real life operating procedures. For one to give you an idea is the batteries are submerged into a 40 degree Celsius water bath to control temperature which is hot. The test is done in the PSOS range of 20 to 80% DOD which is realistically where solar and wind systems operate.

Anyway this battery product line looks to be a solid 8 to 10 year battery from a battery manufacture that has been in business since 1925 and will be around for a long time. They are most notable known for Golf Cart and Floor Machine batteries. Yep Trojan.

The product line is Trojans Industrial Line with Smart Carbon Technology. Like any new release in batteries, I am always skeptical, but the IEC 61427 testing program is not only being done by Trojan, but also Sandia National Labs and both are showing similar results. Trojan released the Smart Carbon Technology in their RE and Industrial lines about a year ago. The Industrial line has a 8 year warranty and made to operate in PSOC range. Trojans Industrial line was originally developed for the fork lift market, but now being marketed to the RE market.

Before anyone rushes out to buy a set take notice these are serious batteries, no such thing as a small capacity in this line up. The smallest is a 6 volt @ 465 AH battery and the largest is 2 volts @ 1850 AH. So these batteries are made for serious off-grid users of 24 to 60 volt systems and up.

For this type of quality you are going to pay a premium of about $330 per Kwh. If you calculate 8 year service using 5 day autonomy you are looking a paying 56-cents per Kwh in battery cost. Not bad considering the #2 contender is 65-cents per Kwh. With the PSOC capabilities of the battery you can realistically lower Autonomy to 4 days giving you a real 3 day reserve and that drop cost to 46-cents per Kwh battery cost. Sounds expensive and it is, but we are talking off-grid solar and these batteries are the least expensive on the market, and fortunately the best on the market in FLA batteries. Pretty much puts the Lithium batteries out of business in the RE market. Trojan Industrial line last longer than any lithium and half the initial price.

do you have a link to a resale that I could actually check the for sale price on these. I have been crusing the web looking but I can not find this new technology battery for sale.

[PNjunction]

The product line is Trojans Industrial Line with Smart Carbon Technology. Like any new release in batteries, I am always skeptical, but the IEC 61427 testing program is not only being done by Trojan, but also Sandia National Labs and both are showing similar results. Trojan released the Smart Carbon Technology in their RE and Industrial lines about a year ago. The Industrial line has a 8 year warranty and made to operate in PSOC range. Trojans Industrial line was originally developed for the fork lift market, but now being marketed to the RE market.

That's actually pretty cool. The whole carbon / graphite additive intrigued me, so I operated an Exide AGM with graphite in psoc operations and was impressed with the curve, although I didn't take the battery to destruction.

I'm glad to see Trojan getting actively involved, and this is a first for me to see it in flooded format. For a few years the whole carbon / graphite additive seemed to be aimed primarily at the micro-hybrid stop/start vehicles, and wondered if the same tech would end up on flooded and a direct aim at the RE market as well.

The last I remember of this type of tech was what, Axion (NOT Aquion!) and a few others too. Wonder what happened there...

As much as I like lifepo4, the carbon / graphite tech for lead is something I'd look long and hard at with RE for sure.

[Sunking]

Not if they stay on their meds, such as lithium. [/FONT]

Good one ole friend.

[inetdog]

Are those running bipolar?

Not if they stay on their meds, such as lithium.

[Sunking]

Just to be clear, higher voltage systems can also be floating as of NEC 2008 (690.35). See the SMA TL series and SolarEdge inverters for examples. That doesn't affect the broader points you were making.

Are those running bipolar? I agree but as you know it gets expensive going that route.

[sensij]

When you cross that line you are now required to use a Grounded System where with 48 volts you can Float or run a Grounded system.

Just to be clear, higher voltage systems can also be floating as of NEC 2008 (690.35). See the SMA TL series and SolarEdge inverters for examples. That doesn't affect the broader points you were making.

[foo1bar]

But more importantly is everything now has to be enclosed and wiring in protected raceways and absolutely no live exposed parts with no access ti live parts of the system. In a 48 volt battery system you can have the batteries mounted on a rack and cables ran in free air where you can easily access the batteries.

Since it'd be a fully contained unit for the batteries and a fully contained unit for the inverter, the only extra thing to have a 'protected raceway' is potentially the connection between the two.

What part of NEC are you basing the requirement for a protected raceway on?

If that is a requirement based on NEC, then I think it'd be satisfied by just putting a conduit between the battery bank and the inverter. And likely they'd be installed basically side-by-side, so conduit between them probably would be short.

Since it's a pre-packaged unit, the "cables ran in free air" thing my not be allowed, but wouldn't matter. The cell/battery interconnections wouldn't be in the free air anyhow.

[Sunking]

I get using a 400v bus on the utility side of these products. It seems non-standard to expose that in the residential business.

First 400 Volts is not Facility Side. Facility is 240 VAC in Residential end of story. 400 volts is CPE (Customer Premises Equipment) side and not at all uncommon with grid tied systems as they operate from 200 to 500 volts using String Inverters. It is everyday practice. However String Inverters are Current Source Invertrs not Voltage Source aka Battery Inverters. There are Hybid Inverters out there made to work from either panels or batteries. But all those are 12, 24, and 48 VDC architecture. No problem making a Hybrid Inverter to operate at high voltage as it is easier and less complicated to use 400 volts vs 12, 24, or 48 volts. But to my knowledge they do not exist. It appears Musk has an answer with another product line from another company he has partnered with Solar Edge. Smart, very Smart when you see the whole picture.

As for the Converter statement I have learned Tesla has working prototypes in a Walmart as a UPS set up, and a few high-end homes with Grid Tied Systems have the system installed. There is no mention of any converters used. Only thing pointed out is the Walmart UPS uses 480 VAC 3-phase input to the chargers. In the Specs Tesla clearly states the units do not come with with an Inverter and is silent on any DC - DC Converters. My educated guess is since the units are made to be Cascaded the DC to DC Converter if it exist is a Add-ON based on how many units you Cascade. But to do it that way is another Egg in the basket to break and eat into efficiency. It can be done that way especially if you intend for your product to be proprietary which so far everything Tesla does is proprietary. No one has access to the batteries, controllers, motors or anything Tesla uses in their vehicles. Proprietary = Big Buck$ and profit margin. Again very Smart.

Based on that knowledge and knowing Musk is one crude sharp businessman he is building a very high end proprietary RE energy platform as a spin off and making a customer out of a $5 Billion dollar battery factory we tax payers are paying a portion of. That is the exact same business model Tesla Motors uses. They build high-end EV's for an elite crowd where price is no object. Just as long as it makes you fell Green and ignore the details. I am the first to admit Tesla makes a damn nice EV a cut above all others. What i despise is the deception and using TAX PAYERS money to build the damn things, and forced again to pay for Charging Stations. Dang it if you can afford such luxury, pay your own damn bills. Same with Solar, pay for it without our help and take whatever the electric company is wiling to pay you for excess. They don't need or want the power. It is the poor and working class paying for it, not the user.

[Sunking]

From an installation point of view, doing 400V tied to the house wiring isn't any more difficult than doing 48V - it's probably simpler because of smaller gauge wires. The expertise needed to deal with >50V is already needed for doing the 240VAC side of things. So it's not like you need an electrician where you wouldn't have before.

I agree with you fully up to this point I take some difference. Moving from 48 volt to 51 volts all the rules change as you cross the 50 volt nominal line. When you cross that line you are now required to use a Grounded System where with 48 volts you can Float or run a Grounded system. But more importantly is everything now has to be enclosed and wiring in protected raceways and absolutely no live exposed parts with no access ti live parts of the system. In a 48 volt battery system you can have the batteries mounted on a rack and cables ran in free air where you can easily access the batteries. Cross that 50 volt nominal voltage line and every thing changes.

Other than that you seem to have a grasp and understand the benefits of higher working voltages. The catch is if you use the Tesla system. Absolutely no DIY or user supplied equipment. Tesla has the whole process locked down and under his controls and rules of engagement. That is what I have a problem with. That so called $3000 to $3500 price tag is completely BOGUS. Sure it will show up as $3000 on a line item in the finale bill. Classic Bait and Switch and not a darn thing the consumer can do about it.

[foo1bar]

I just don't see them exposing 400v dc in a residential application.

Why not?

Standard dryer outlet is 240V AC (peak-to-peak voltage of ~680V)

Most US solar installations have between 300 and 600V DC

There are even high voltage DC car chargers. I'll grant you that they're not common in residential, BUT they are setup so they're safe enough for any idiot to make that final connection between the high voltage DC supply and the car.

From an installation point of view, doing 400V tied to the house wiring isn't any more difficult than doing 48V - it's probably simpler because of smaller gauge wires. The expertise needed to deal with >50V is already needed for doing the 240VAC side of things. So it's not like you need an electrician where you wouldn't have before.