My New Favorite Battery.

[DanKegel]

Grid Tied Inverters operate at that voltage. Well they most certainly do but that has nothing to do with a BATTERY INVERTER. What it will take is a Hybrid Inverter and all those on the market are made for 12, 24, and 48 volt systems all operating under that magic 50 volt limit the Green Blind Crowd keeps ignoring and does not want to hear about. It can be done, but none exist that I know of for the consumer markets. What you wanna bet that is Tesla next move?

Tesla said they're partnering with SolarEdge, which has been making noises about coming out with a battery inverter ("StorEdge") since June 2013, but evidently that's a 48v system (from http://www.aurora-energy.com/solar-e...ckup-solution/ ).

Where does the "magic 50 volt limit" come from? Is that from limitations in power semiconductors?

BTW I agree that the cost for a system using Tesla batteries is probably higher than the $3500 battery-only figure quoted. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...rting-at-5-000 mentions an installed system price of $7140.

[Sunking]

What I'd like to know is how they are going to integrate this new high-voltage (350 - 450Vdc) Tesla battery into a home system. I assume its going to be grid-tied, but I don't know of any current inverter that can work with this battery. They say SolarEdge is going to have something compatible. Great - another new, unproven item. I've been waiting for 30 years for a battery "breakthrough". God knows the industry needs it. Maybe this is it, but I'll stick with Trojan for now. This new industrial version sounds pretty good to me. The big advantage of lithium batteries is the much better energy density, but in a stationary application, who cares?

Finally someone who actually is thinking things out and asking the right questions. As of now there is no solution, but that is not Tesla problem that is the customers problem to figure out. If you read the latest press there are some catches Mr Musk did not initially bring to the surface until pressed for answers. First catch is the new batteries will be distributed and installed through Solar City, and the $3000 cost does not include any of that. This is not a DIY battery. Once you go above 50 volts nominal all the electrical rules change.

Tesla is not providing any ancillary equipment to make the battery work, that is a customer problem to figure out at their own expense and time. Then they are required to use Solar City to install all of it. So hats off to you Solarix you did not go Ooh and Ahh and salivate with Green Blinders and fingers in your ears. You asked some good questions.

Can you use a 350 to 450 volt battery Inverter and do they exist? Sure do just about all commercial UPS use high voltage DC inverters. But those are Commercial and Industrial grade Battery Inverters and come with a commercial industrial price tag. They also operate in the 6 and 7 digit wattage range.

I know the next response and question from the Green Blind crowd: Grid Tied Inverters operate at that voltage. Well they most certainly do but that has nothing to do with a BATTERY INVERTER. What it will take is a Hybrid Inverter and all those on the market are made for 12, 24, and 48 volt systems all operating under that magic 50 volt limit the Green Blind Crowd keeps ignoring and does not want to hear about. It can be done, but none exist that I know of for the consumer markets. What you wanna bet that is Tesla next move?

Look guys I am all for EV's, I own a NEV, and a huge fan of Lithium batteries. But there are still a lot of challenges and hurdles left to be overcome before they become mainstream. The biggest hurdle of them all is power generation and transmission. Solar is not going to solve that problem, so it does no good to have a battery if there is no way to generate the power to be stored and used later on a commercial scale. The next hurdl;e which is being worked on is a Lithium battery that does not exist as of yet, but there are prototypes on the table. But they have to figure out how to make them affordable and still have a problem with the high energy density materials are rare with limited supply. Does not make sense to make a battery from rare earth materials with more limited quantities than current fossil fuels. Especially when you are standing on a few million years of dirt cheap fuel emission free fuel and refuse to use it.

What Tesla is banking on is California customers trying to load shift. That is putting a band aid on a severed limb trying to stop the bleeding. The real issue is base load or lack of power generation. California demand exceeds capacity, 30% of CA electricity is imported. That is up from 10% 20 years ago when CA decided to quit building power plants and go RE. A battery is not going to solve any problems the state is facing.

As for Tesla battery, well just way to many unanswered questions and using a $3000 price tag is just Bait and Switch tactic. Elon Musk is a very smart businessman who makes a very good EV, and figured out a way to make money off California energy crisis. It does not solve the problem, he just figured out a way to profit from it and the more power to him for doing that. He figured out a way to profit from your misery and a lot of you like that. Take off the Green Blinders and you may see things in a different light when you ask real informed questions.

[russ]

Probably gets his money from an ATM machine also..

I don't think ATM's were around when Yogi Berra uttered that phrase.[/QUOTE]

I liked the quote from Yogi, "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings".

[J.P.M.]

Anyone writing "deja vu all over again" doesn't even understand what the phrase means.

Probably gets his money from an ATM machine also..[/QUOTE]

I don't think ATM's were around when Yogi Berra uttered that phrase.

[russ]

So - do you feel good about yourself for spending that kind of money?

Seriously though, the people I know that have an EV it's actually cost effective because they drive enough each day, and the cost of gas vs. cost of electricity more than makes up for the difference in vehicle price.

Only because your neighbors are paying the way for them.

[Sunny Solar]

Anyone writing "deja vu all over again" doesn't even understand what the phrase means.[/QUOTE]

Probably gets his money from an ATM machine also..

[russ]

Yeah! He disagrees with us -- must be an ENEMY! Get out the tar and feathers!

Anyone that disagrees with you Dan must have at least a little bit on the ball.

[foo1bar]

What I'd like to know is how they are going to integrate this new high-voltage (350 - 450Vdc) Tesla battery into a home system. I assume its going to be grid-tied, but I don't know of any current inverter that can work with this battery.

Seems pretty straightforward to me - those are voltages that work well for solar inverters, so I think it should be easy to adapt that for a battery source instead of solar panels.

[solarix]

What I'd like to know is how they are going to integrate this new high-voltage (350 - 450Vdc) Tesla battery into a home system. I assume its going to be grid-tied, but I don't know of any current inverter that can work with this battery. They say SolarEdge is going to have something compatible. Great - another new, unproven item. I've been waiting for 30 years for a battery "breakthrough". God knows the industry needs it. Maybe this is it, but I'll stick with Trojan for now. This new industrial version sounds pretty good to me. The big advantage of lithium batteries is the much better energy density, but in a stationary application, who cares?

[foo1bar]

EV is a second car for folks who have that kind of money to spend to feel good about themselves.

...
I have a NEV with Lithium batteries.

So - do you feel good about yourself for spending that kind of money?

Seriously though, the people I know that have an EV it's actually cost effective because they drive enough each day, and the cost of gas vs. cost of electricity more than makes up for the difference in vehicle price.

[DanKegel]

I smell a RAT.

Yeah! He disagrees with us -- must be an ENEMY! Get out the tar and feathers!

[J.P.M.]

You know they are on the run when you see the dust flying off the 30 year old resumes that are trotted out as proof of validity.

You're only as good as your last project.

[Sunking]

Lithium titanate might be longer living - it isn't clear that LiFePO4 would be longer living. But the clear issue is total ROI, which means both cycle life and acquisition cost. Lithium titanate is still very expensive, much higher than LiFePO4. While most of us can't source Tesla/Panasonic cells at $160/kWh, Tesla can do that since they bought about 2.5 GWh of cells last year. As a result, there is no premium. Tesla/Panasonic cells are simultaneously the highest specific energy and the lowest cost per kWh of the major high power, high current lithium ion products. Now, Tesla throws in a DC charge controller, packaging, liquid thermal management, and gross margin to get to $429/kWh (usable).

As the Gigafactory comes online, the cell prices drop further.

BTW, the head of Tesla's battery efforts used to work for Panasonic, both in manufacturing in Japan and heading up Panasonic's U.S. research lab. The cells are made by Panasonic to Tesla's spec, so they aren't exactly what you get in retail. The other problem with sourcing Panasonic cells is either you pay through the nose or you risk counterfeits from China.

I smell a RAT. 3 posters, just joined today. All post about Tesla. ~~~~~~~deleted~~~~~
RUSS who is this guy and Hub?

[tech01x]

I agree and no reason to pay the premium price for that. There are longer lived cells at much lower cost in both FLA and LiFeP04 which are much more forgiving. FWIW I have a NEV with Lithium batteries. Built it myself, my second build. I use LiFeP04

Lithium titanate might be longer living - it isn't clear that LiFePO4 would be longer living. But the clear issue is total ROI, which means both cycle life and acquisition cost. Lithium titanate is still very expensive, much higher than LiFePO4. While most of us can't source Tesla/Panasonic cells at $160/kWh, Tesla can do that since they bought about 2.5 GWh of cells last year. As a result, there is no premium. Tesla/Panasonic cells are simultaneously the highest specific energy and the lowest cost per kWh of the major high power, high current lithium ion products. Now, Tesla throws in a DC charge controller, packaging, liquid thermal management, and gross margin to get to $429/kWh (usable).

As the Gigafactory comes online, the cell prices drop further.

BTW, the head of Tesla's battery efforts used to work for Panasonic, both in manufacturing in Japan and heading up Panasonic's U.S. research lab. The cells are made by Panasonic to Tesla's spec, so they aren't exactly what you get in retail. The other problem with sourcing Panasonic cells is either you pay through the nose or you risk counterfeits from China.

[Sunking]

3) The closest Panasonic retail cell to Tesla's Model S cell is the NCR18650BE, which can't have that high of charge rate or discharge rate. Pulses to 10C, but realistically Tesla uses 4-5C discharge and max charging at 1.7C. But stationary storage doesn't really need it either, as you likely inverter limited..

I agree and no reason to pay the premium price for that. There are longer lived cells at much lower cost in both FLA and LiFeP04 which are much more forgiving. FWIW I have a NEV with Lithium batteries. Built it myself, my second build. I use LiFeP04