My New Favorite Battery.

[Samsolar]

Sam - If you can't understand the difference between an automotive or aviation application and home use you are a lost cause.

I can Russ. I'm also fairly good at reading what others have posted before I respond....

If you were reading the messages in the thread you would see that Sunking stated the Lithium batteries weren't ready for EVs. I just pointed out hundreds of thousands of EVs have been sold with supposedly "not ready batteries". As with all things, the market will decide but the trend seems fairly obvious..

[Sunking]

So if Lithium batteries aren't ready yet then how did Nissan sell 158,000 Leafs? Perhaps by ready you mean ready to replace all fossil fuel vehicles?

I mean mainstream vehicles. Most all Leaf and Tesla owners have second ICE car. Today's lithium battery cannot replace an ICE car. EV is a second car for folks who have that kind of money to spend to feel good about themselves. To get there 300+ mile range, 15 minute recharge, 10 year battery life, and competitive priced. No where close to that yet.

FWIW Nissan Leaf battery has been plagued with problems, first 3 model years all need replacements. Which is why Nissan has offered replacements for $5000 plus labor.

[russ]

So if Lithium batteries aren't ready yet then how did Nissan sell 158,000 Leafs? Perhaps by ready you mean ready to replace all fossil fuel vehicles?

It would seem that Nissan (or Tesla) has built a product that is selling well with a battery that doesn't meet the criteria you listed but is working quite well for thousands of people. I guess it is lucky for Nissan and their shareholders that many buyers look at things differently than you do.

Sam - If you can't understand the difference between an automotive or aviation application and home use you are a lost cause.

Everyone is waiting for the next battery - maybe this is it and maybe not. A year or two and we will have a far better idea about this.

Musk needs something good to happen right now - other things have been a bit on the sour side.

[Samsolar]

I am telling you right now Lithium batteries are not ready for home use yet for Joe Home Owner. To go one step further they are not ready for EV's yet either. Not even half way there yet. To be practical in a EV a battery needs to have:

So if Lithium batteries aren't ready yet then how did Nissan sell 158,000 Leafs? Perhaps by ready you mean ready to replace all fossil fuel vehicles?

It would seem that Nissan (or Tesla) has built a product that is selling well with a battery that doesn't meet the criteria you listed but is working quite well for thousands of people. I guess it is lucky for Nissan and their shareholders that many buyers look at things differently than you do.

[russ]

Old men tend to miss the sea change. I have a few friends who were old men by age 35.

I used to participate in a camera forum where the old engineers insisted that a full frame digital 35mm camera could never be produced economically. It was fundamentally impossible. After Contax introduced the first reasonably priced full frame digital 35mm camera, they still argued it was impossible.

It deja vu all over again.

Donald - You are a bit of an ass at a young age apparently.

Anyone writing "deja vu all over again" doesn't even understand what the phrase means.

[tech01x]

Tesla's batteries

I am one of the most tech savy person you will ever meet. In my profession you have to be ahead of the technology as it is required to stay current and maintain a PE licensure in Electrical and Computer: Power. Do you have a PE in any of the 25 disciplines? I did not think so.

I am telling you right now Lithium batteries are not ready for home use yet for Joe Home Owner. To go one step further they are not ready for EV's yet either. Not even half way there yet. To be practical in a EV a battery needs to have:

• Specific Energy Density of 400 wh/Kg to make a usable sized car with a range competitive with ICE. Today only 200 wh/Kg with Lithium Cobalt.
• 4C charge rate and 10C discharge rate. Some lithium have that, but not one you can use in a EV as Polymer has only 150 to 200 cycles in them and cost $3/wh or $3K per Kwh.
• 2000 cycles without any meaningful capacity loss to 90% DOD. None exist
• Thermal performance to at least 0 degree F. None exist. Best lithium out there today only have 50% capacity at 0 degrees F, and heat destroys a lithium battery in short time. Lithium batteries have a very narrow temperature operating range which is why Telsa has to use liquid heating and cooling in all their cars.

I've done a lot of research into the cells that Tesla uses for their car. They might or might not be the same that go into the Powerwall product, but if they are:

1) Tesla is using nickel aluminum cobalt (NCA) with a graphite anode. The original Roadster used lithium cobalt.
2) The current specific energy of Tesla's NCA cells in the Model S is around 260 Wh/kg, but that is irrelevant for stationary storage
3) The closest Panasonic retail cell to Tesla's Model S cell is the NCR18650BE, which can't have that high of charge rate or discharge rate. Pulses to 10C, but realistically Tesla uses 4-5C discharge and max charging at 1.7C. But stationary storage doesn't really need it either, as you likely inverter limited.
4) Panasonic has tested the same base chemistry with > 90% capacity out to 3,000 charge cycles: http://ma.ecsdl.org/content/MA2011-0....full.pdf+html
This was a while ago and reportedly Tesla's custom iteration is better. The degradation data coming from cars with > 100,000 miles of them bear this out. They achieve this by limiting the depth of discharge to 91%, avoiding both the very top and very bottom SoC.
5) Cost for the raw cells is reportedly somewhere between $160/kWh and $200/kWh. There was an SAE report with $160/kWh. These cells have to be integrated into bricks with external protection.
6) Narrow temperature performance, yes, but you have to quantify that. Operating temperature of the pack is -20 degrees C to 43 degrees C. Panasonic's NCA chemistry and electrolyte actually does quite well with very high temps. With low temps, it is best not to charge them with a lot of current under 0 degrees C, but that's why they are thermally managed.

[Sunking]

Old men tend to miss the sea change. I have a few friends who were old men by age 35.

I used to participate in a camera forum where the old engineers insisted that a full frame digital 35mm camera could never be produced economically. It was fundamentally impossible. After Contax introduced the first reasonably priced full frame digital 35mm camera, they still argued it was impossible.

It deja vu all over again.

I am one of the most tech savy person you will ever meet. In my profession you have to be ahead of the technology as it is required to stay current and maintain a PE licensure in Electrical and Computer: Power. Do you have a PE in any of the 25 disciplines? I did not think so.

I am telling you right now Lithium batteries are not ready for home use yet for Joe Home Owner. To go one step further they are not ready for EV's yet either. Not even half way there yet. To be practical in a EV a battery needs to have:

• Specific Energy Density of 400 wh/Kg to make a usable sized car with a range competitive with ICE. Today only 200 wh/Kg with Lithium Cobalt.
• 4C charge rate and 10C discharge rate. Some lithium have that, but not one you can use in a EV as Polymer has only 150 to 200 cycles in them and cost $3/wh or $3K per Kwh.
• 2000 cycles without any meaningful capacity loss to 90% DOD. None exist
• Thermal performance to at least 0 degree F. None exist. Best lithium out there today only have 50% capacity at 0 degrees F, and heat destroys a lithium battery in short time. Lithium batteries have a very narrow temperature operating range which is why Telsa has to use liquid heating and cooling in all their cars.

[Willy T]

Old men tend to miss the sea change. I have a few friends who were old men by age 35.

I used to participate in a camera forum where the old engineers insisted that a full frame digital 35mm camera could never be produced economically. It was fundamentally impossible. After Contax introduced the first reasonably priced full frame digital 35mm camera, they still argued it was impossible.

It deja vu all over again.

You know they are on the run when you see the dust flying off the 30 year old resumes that are trotted out as proof of validity.

[SunEagle]

Some old(er) people still have the exuberance and enthusiasm of their youth tempered by the wisdom and battle scars of their experience.

It's always easier to take the negative position in any debate. Something to do with social entropy.

On the other hand, fools do rush in.

Experienced people usually measure twice and cut once.

[J.P.M.]

Old men tend to miss the sea change. I have a few friends who were old men by age 35.

I used to participate in a camera forum where the old engineers insisted that a full frame digital 35mm camera could never be produced economically. It was fundamentally impossible. After Contax introduced the first reasonably priced full frame digital 35mm camera, they still argued it was impossible.

It deja vu all over again.

Some old(er) people still have the exuberance and enthusiasm of their youth tempered by the wisdom and battle scars of their experience.

It's always easier to take the negative position in any debate. Something to do with social entropy.

On the other hand, fools do rush in.

[donald]

Old men tend to miss the sea change. I have a few friends who were old men by age 35.

I used to participate in a camera forum where the old engineers insisted that a full frame digital 35mm camera could never be produced economically. It was fundamentally impossible. After Contax introduced the first reasonably priced full frame digital 35mm camera, they still argued it was impossible.

It deja vu all over again.

[Sunking]

Just that car thing. But Musk does waste time with that space flight thing. It's not like his companies have real engineers, right? It's all obviously all show.

Tesla has ZERO experience manufacturing batteries. All they do is assemble batteries in a box, and using Cobalt batteries is not a good thing as they are very dangerous. Cobalt batteries are the ones that get the bad press like making cargo planes drop out of the sky and catch fire on the tarmac. Cobalt also has the lowest cycle life of the lithium family. Did you catch the part the Tesla battery is LIQUID COOLED? Why? Because they are Cobalt batteries. Liquid cooled batteries do not go in my house. They only go into blind Greenies homes.

Engage your brain before mouth and actually do something you have never done before. RESEARCH. I will put my 35+ years of education, research, and experience up against your 5 minute blind passion any day.

The solution for California is not batteries, it is what they have ignored for the last 25 years of building conventional generation. No amount of solar or batteries is going to fix it. Just make it more expensive to import power.

[russ]

One thing it did - all the loony green camp are certainly hot and bothered about the announcement.

The others will wait for, "The rest of the story".

[SunEagle]

They're probably real enough in their own opinion. Just like retired or older engineers may think they were/are the "real" engineers, and wonder where we went off the tracks. At the end of the day, if an engineer, within certain parameters, produces an output that results in an improvement in the human condition (subject to some interpretation), their opinions of themselves or of other practitioners of their profession is of little consequence. Opinions are like noses - everyone has their own and most of them smell most of the time.

+1. Just love it.

[J.P.M.]

Just that car thing. But Musk does waste time with that space flight thing. It's not like his companies have real engineers, right? It's all obviously all show.

They're probably real enough in their own opinion. Just like retired or older engineers may think they were/are the "real" engineers, and wonder where we went off the tracks. At the end of the day, if an engineer, within certain parameters, produces an output that results in an improvement in the human condition (subject to some interpretation), their opinions of themselves or of other practitioners of their profession is of little consequence. Opinions are like noses - everyone has their own and most of them smell most of the time.