WE Energies to Squash Distributed Renewables with their latest rate case.

[russ]

I'm handy, but not that handy.....and besides I think I would have a hard time getting it UL approved just in case I want to keep my homeowners insurance.

You might try buying a UL listed heater coil - easy. You wouldn't have to be handy for this one - you just don't realize or want to admit how simple it is.

[DanS26]

Rather than pay a high price for this type of thing just build your own or have one built. This is just a pile of dense bricks in a box with a heater coil.

I'm handy, but not that handy.....and besides I think I would have a hard time getting it UL approved just in case I want to keep my homeowners insurance.

[J.P.M.]

Rather than pay a high price for this type of thing just build your own or have one built. This is just a pile of dense bricks in a box with a heater coil.

+1 on the DIY thermal storage. More flexible for shape, size, placement and almost certainly cost. Still. heating anything with resistance electricity is like cutting butter with a chain saw.

[russ]

kwilcox, I have another idea for you to use up that daily excess. Have you heard of Electric Thermal Storage?

Take a look at this product.....

http://www.steffes.com/off-peak-heating/ets.html

Here is how I am using the product. I set up the off peak and on peak timers to only charge the unit between 10am and 2pm (ie when the sun shines), then I release the stored energy into the house at night or early morning. Yes there are transfer losses but it is still better than selling my excess energy to POCO at $.035 kWh.

Rather than pay a high price for this type of thing just build your own or have one built. This is just a pile of dense bricks in a box with a heater coil.

[DanS26]

Exactly. I have two branch circuits in mind already... Also, purely as a mental exercise (since winter is approaching), I'm going to calculate the size/height ratio of a reservoir system that can store my 13kWh maximum daily excess (yes... a personal PHS system). I'm expecting that it'll probably be hilarious...

kwilcox, I have another idea for you to use up that daily excess. Have you heard of Electric Thermal Storage?

Take a look at this product.....

http://www.steffes.com/off-peak-heating/ets.html

Here is how I am using the product. I set up the off peak and on peak timers to only charge the unit between 10am and 2pm (ie when the sun shines), then I release the stored energy into the house at night or early morning. Yes there are transfer losses but it is still better than selling my excess energy to POCO at $.035 kWh.

[SunEagle]

It would be worth it just to show the utilities that partial defection is possible. I'd sign up just to break even. Some utilities might embrace it since it could help to shave peak demand.

Somehow, with work like this, it appears we are inching ever so slowly to the solar promised land.

Right now most solar PV systems already help shave peak demand for the Utility. And they don't like that because they lose money. It all comes down to how a Utility determines what is profitable and what is not.

Here in Florida building new generating plants is more profitable to the Utility than purchasing some of the existing private smaller plants that can't compete with the big guys. Going solar is also an uphill battle for the homeowner even with a grid tie system.

If you look at Hawaii where the going rate is about $0.55/kWh there has been a proliferation of people installing PV systems. Now the Utility has pretty much stopped new connections from happening because they say that their grid can't handle all those local generating systems which can cause voltage imbalances (which is only partly true). So some have gone off grid only to find out it is costing them about $1.0/kWh to generate their own power. No savings there and no pressure on the Utility because they really aren't losing that much income from the off gridders.

I wish you were right that the Utilities would embrace more people installing solar. But some Utilities don't want to give up the monopoly of power generation so will fight to get back what they lost because they were forced to meet a State goal of a % of all generation that has to come from Renewable.

[kwilcox]

It would be worth it just to show the utilities that partial defection is possible...

Exactly. I have two branch circuits in mind already... Also, purely as a mental exercise (since winter is approaching), I'm going to calculate the size/height ratio of a reservoir system that can store my 13kWh maximum daily excess (yes... a personal PHS system). I'm expecting that it'll probably be hilarious...

[DanS26]

I suspect it would only be cost effective where the POCO has very high rates especially at peak times that extend into evening hours and has a combination of minimal payment for over production and a restrictive implementation of net metering (e.g. monthly trueup, non-combinable buckets for peak and off-peak, etc.) Just looking at my own usage and a WAG, it might at best save $2/day for 6 months and maybe $0.50/day for the rest of the year. Let's be generous and say $500/year. If the battery lifetime is ten years, unless it costs quite a bit less than $5K, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

It would be worth it just to show the utilities that partial defection is possible. I'd sign up just to break even. Some utilities might embrace it since it could help to shave peak demand.

Somehow, with work like this, it appears we are inching ever so slowly to the solar promised land.

[SunEagle]

After some additional thought, I think I overestimated the benefits and it would be unlikely to be more than $300 a year.

Exactly what I am trying to say. Sure it can save people with high electrical tariffs but what you save will be a few dollars to what I believe you will have to spend to install that system and maintain it.

Of course I am estimating a high cost for it but when they do not show any $ amount and provide a lot of double talk I feel the price will be a shocker to a home owner.

[Ian S]

After some additional thought, I think I overestimated the benefits and it would be unlikely to be more than $300 a year.

[Ian S]

I see. It may give you the ability to use less Utility power during peak times. Or if the Utility pays you much less than what they charge you per kWh why not use your battery instead of using the Utility.

Still unless the cost is low I will follow the rule that the $/kWh generated from a battery system is still many times more than from the Utility.

I suspect it would only be cost effective where the POCO has very high rates especially at peak times that extend into evening hours and has a combination of minimal payment for over production and a restrictive implementation of net metering (e.g. monthly trueup, non-combinable buckets for peak and off-peak, etc.) Just looking at my own usage and a WAG, it might at best save $2/day for 6 months and maybe $0.50/day for the rest of the year. Let's be generous and say $500/year. If the battery lifetime is ten years, unless it costs quite a bit less than $5K, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

[kwilcox]

I saw that. I also saw a lot of mumbo-jumbo about their controller:

The JuiceBox controller is the brains of the system. It constantly monitors the state of the battery, the PV output and building load from the inverter and determines the mode of operation based on customer bill rates or other priorities. There is a balance between rates of charge and discharge, operating temperature, depth of discharge and number of cycles that must be achieved to ensure long life.

Does that jargon = double the life I wonder?

[DanS26]

hmmm... so this would be the battery system component for a SE Conext TX system running in AC coupled mode. I like it because according to SE's app note (located here),when the Conext is running AC coupled, all intelligent charge controlling for the storage system is offline. Power is just flowing back through the inverter. With a built in charge controller, this could be an ideal setup.

Still, would like to see more real stats on this. According to Sunking, typical LI technology is only good for about 2000 DOD cycles. That means it burns out in 5 years if charged/discharged daily.

Their website says 10 year product life.

[kwilcox]

Hate to put this thread back on track.....since you guys are having such fun....oh well.

Have you heard of this CA start up call JuiceBox? As I understand it, their product is to be rolled out in late 2015. I am interested since here in Indiana we are on a net billing arrangement also. The product is modular and Li ion based.

I see it as a way to use more of my produced energy internally and thus sell less excess power back at wholesale rates. I'm getting $.035 wholesale, you are lucky to get over $.04.

hmmm... so this would be the battery system component for a SE Conext TX system running in AC coupled mode. I like it because according to SE's app note (located here),when the Conext is running AC coupled, all intelligent charge controlling for the storage system is offline. Power is just flowing back through the inverter. With a built in charge controller, this could be an ideal setup.

Still, would like to see more real stats on this. According to Sunking, typical LI technology is only good for about 2000 DOD cycles. That means it burns out in 5 years if charged/discharged daily.

[DanS26]

I see. It may give you the ability to use less Utility power during peak times. Or if the Utility pays you much less than what they charge you per kWh why not use your battery instead of using the Utility.

Still unless the cost is low I will follow the rule that the $/kWh generated from a battery system is still many times more than from the Utility.

This is exactly my situation in Indiana and kwilcox in Wisconsin. Perfect fit for those of us on net billing schemes.