WE Energies to Squash Distributed Renewables with their latest rate case.

[russ]

Thanks for the Duke U. link! The fact that there isn't more PHS would seem to shed some interesting light on the entire concept of large scale energy storage.

What interesting light?

[kwilcox]

60-80% actually.

http://people.duke.edu/~cy42/PHS.pdf

San Luis reservoir (near me) I believe is >70%. I don't remember for sure how much more - but I do remember it being much more than 50%.

Thanks for the Duke U. link! The fact that there isn't more PHS would seem to shed some interesting light on the entire concept of large scale energy storage.

[russ]

I take it that this isn't a very efficient storage option.

The real problem is the volume (or elevation) requirements are a bit fantastic per kWh generated.

[foo1bar]

Less than 50% recovery.

60-80% actually.

http://people.duke.edu/~cy42/PHS.pdf

San Luis reservoir (near me) I believe is >70%. I don't remember for sure how much more - but I do remember it being much more than 50%.

[inetdog]

I take it that this isn't a very efficient storage option.

Less than 50% recovery. And the turbines to get it back do not spool up all that fast. The momentum of water in the penstocks stores a surprising amount of energy.

[kwilcox]

Pump Back Lakes

I take it that this isn't a very efficient storage option.

[kwilcox]

Hmmm... I just completed some interesting analysis of my TED data from beginning June to present. What I need is an energy storage system whose normal longest-life state is only partially charged and whose maximum storage capacity is about 300aH @ 48v greater than that. The highest daily net negative I've ever gone is 12.96 kWh.

[Sunking]

How does the POCO deal with over generation if they can't store the energy? Are there huge heating strips out there?

Pump Back Lakes

[inetdog]

How does the POCO deal with over generation if they can't store the energy? Are there huge heating strips out there?

In the very short term, they can raise the delivery voltage (staying within the specification limits) so that non-motor loads will draw more power.
Just as they can reduce the delivery voltage when their generation capacity is strained.

[kwilcox]

How does the POCO deal with over generation if they can't store the energy? Are there huge heating strips out there?

[russ]

More than likely the energy storage system that does come to market (if ever) will be on the large and expensive side and used by the Utility or Government. The chance of getting something a home can use in a price range that the masses can purchase will still be a long way out.

It would be a big deal for the generators - allowing them to store baseline generation from low demand periods to peak periods.

When something viable is presented to them I expect they will be all over it. The utilities/generators are not the new tech providers - just the consumers.

[J.P.M.]

Concur. Large scale energy storage is a core component of a grid that can autonomously leverage DER. I'm not talking COG DER here either (although it would remove even the $11/mWh a utility spends in return for great PR). Large scale storage facilities could cost billions but the utilities are used to that. This is also a long term path towards protecting their investors because it allows a new component of the generation fleet with essentially zero fuel costs to be added to the energy mix.

I did not mean to imply it is that simple. For one thing, fuel costs may not be the biggest, or even a big issue as most of the POCO's seem to want to infer by bitching about how the "solar freeloaders" are not paying their fair share of somewhat fixed infrastructure build and maintenance costs (billions or not, rate payers will pay for it) rather than flexible fuel costs. Also, when they pay avoided fuel costs at $.045/kWh flat rate for over generation but charge ~$.17 to $.38/kWh to me for the same power, I suspect, they do not want to discuss fuel costs as much as other things.

[kwilcox]

...Perhaps energy storage could be another chance for the utilities to get out in front of an issue after standing around with their thumbs in their collective butt and letting rooftop solar get away from them. Nice foresight on that one.

Concur. Large scale energy storage is a core component of a grid that can autonomously leverage DER. I'm not talking COG DER here either (although it would remove even the $11/mWh a utility spends in return for great PR). Large scale storage facilities could cost billions but the utilities are used to that. This is also a long term path towards protecting their investors because it allows a new component of the generation fleet with essentially zero fuel costs to be added to the energy mix.

[SunEagle]

That's true. There's a company that has a saltwater battery that I believe is currently marketing it for grid energy storage. They are huge and heavy, which doesn't make much difference for stationary applications. But they are supposed to be available to the off-grid market soon, although I don't know about price. They have like 7,000 cycle life to 0% SOC and I know one guy that was beta testing one on off-grid and was impressed with it. He can't say much about it due to NDA. But it is coming.

More than likely the energy storage system that does come to market (if ever) will be on the large and expensive side and used by the Utility or Government. The chance of getting something a home can use in a price range that the masses can purchase will still be a long way out.

All I know if that unless Germany gets something real quick they are in deep do-do. As they shut down their nuclear generation they have been increasing the use of their coal fired plants to keep their grid stable.

Nice way to be Green.

[J.P.M.]

A true storage breakthrough is going to have you grinning... It's like an Ebola cure. They will develop it when enough people need it. Elon Musk is one big example currently. POCO policy may add more to the mix. Maybe that is why Morgan Stanley and Barclays bank are issuing warnings to the commercial energy sector.

Most often when financial slugs and others issue warnings such as that my cynical nature reminds me that such things are done for manipulation purposes, especially when I observe the warnings are not universal or even counter to what other financial slugs are saying.

Still - whoever comes up with a workable, scalable and flexible solution to the energy storage challenge will be the next Bill Gates. Maybe that will me Musk, but his methods remind me too much of P.T. Barnum. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. In this case, I'd like that. I could get my EV quicker.

Perhaps energy storage could be another chance for the utilities to get out in front of an issue after standing around with their thumbs in their collective butt and letting rooftop solar get away from them. Nice foresight on that one.