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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

    Anything you connect to your household outlets or electrical panel, especially if it is capable of backfeeding their grid, is subject to their jurisdiction. Pi$$ the PwrCo off, and if they disconnect their meter on your property, for improper connections, they can also have your house red tagged - unable to legally enter, because it has no official electrical service.

    Be very careful what game you are playing, the PwrCo has most of the rules and law & case history on their side. You have -squat-.

    Markyrocks - please be careful what sort of "advice" you are passing out. Just because you want to do it your way, does not mean other folks are able to do it that way in their jurisdiction. You can become liable if some person takes your advice and suffer a service disconnect or fines because of what you said. - Moderator
    I'm in no way advocating doing anything outside of nec rules ect. I fully understand that the power company can shut your power off, fine a customer and cause all kinds of issues. Also I'm in no way advocating connecting any kinda backfeeding device without there consent. I'm all for going thru the proper channels and doing things the correct way.

    My question hasn't been answered tho. I wanted to put in a subpanel last winter. 1st thing I did was call my municipality. I asked if I needed a permit. They explicitly said no. I even talked directly with the code enforcement officer. Same thing. In that regard if I'm not required to get a permit I'm not obligated to even get it inspected. I got an inspection anyways bc I knew I'd be dealing with the poco over the solar installation I had planned.

    However if I hadn't got an inspection what legal grounds would the electric company have to demand to enter my property in the far fetched instance that they caught wind I put in the subpanel and decided they needed to see it? The governing body, my municipality said no permit was required. I understand that they can shut me off if they wanted to but considering that electricity is kinda an essential service they better have a helluva reason and be prepared to be sued. They could redtag me until they're blue in the face I can run off my backup generator indefinitely if I need to. Just as they have the right to refuse service I have the right to refuse anyone except a officer of the law with a warrant access to my property's interior. Like I had said b4 the only reasonr I'm even aware of that they can even shut me off is if there was some kinda obviously dangerous violation viable from my meter location, backfeeding without permission or running a generator without a transfer switch, illegally/modified main installation, loads that caused major fluctuations/service interpretations or interference with othe customers service, or some form of theft of service.

    As far as I'm aware the only thing MY poco even requires to be inspected as the service drop to the main disconnect. Obviously if the main disconnect was inside I could understand if they wanted to see it. But like I had said b4 a generator or even off grid Pv setup that is isolated from their grid shouldn't be any of their business at all.

    Obviously there maybe some municipality's that require backup generator installations to be inspected, and in that vein in that situation a off grid pv system used as a backup power generator may also be required to be inspected. However that's a completely separate issue than dealing with the poco. If I had a off grid pv system that was permitted and inspected through the municipality and the poco decided that they didn't like that would be too bad for them bc it wouldn't have a thing to do with them in that scenario. They would definitely be opening themselves up for a lawsuit. After all this is America. In all reality tho unless you had a over zealous meter reader (if they even exist anymore) , if you're not backfeeding or electrocuting guys working on the utility lines theyd more than likely never know anyways. There wouldn't be a valid reason for them to know regardless.

    Just to be perfectly crystal clear I'm not playing any games with my electric company. Every piece of equipment on my property is ul listed, all proper paperwork filed, solar installation has been inspected and I'm currently waiting on PTO. The mass majority of what I'm talking about is hypotheticals.
    Last edited by Markyrocks69; 08-13-2019, 11:13 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by bcroe View Post
      If you are building a house, nothing wrong with super insulation. But converting an older
      house to that level of insulation will be extremely difficult. Those of us in a house are
      not likely to tear them down. Still you will need some energy to cover losses. With
      PV solar you can cover that loss and get to zero net energy use. But with the older
      house the best trade off is perhaps a lot more solar and a lot less insulation.

      The only practical way to convert your summer collected PV energy to winter heat, is
      net metering. A useful measure is that a gallon of propane is equal to about 27KWH
      of electricity. That means a 10 cent KWH can directly compete with a $2.70 gallon of
      propane using resistance electric heat. With the prop suppliers desperately trying to
      export as much as possible and create an artificial mid winter price twice that, you
      are better to electrically heat.

      But if you use a heat pump with negative temp capability and a COP of 3, you can
      compete with $0.90 a gallon propane. And of course, air condition very cheaply with
      the same equipment. Still this falls short of natural gas, for now. Bruce Roe
      I pay $1.19 for a gallon of propane.

      From what Ive been told, "California already has bills where new solar can't spin the meter backwards. People who bought electric cars were told they could drive in the high occupancy lanes - now they are told only for a couple years then the sticker is no good and they can't get a new one unless they buy a new electric car. And there is now an annual fee coming here on electric cars to make up for the gas tax the state doesn't collect on them. Not to mention time of day metering on power. Someone who works and who leaves the AC on a high setting until they get home from work around 5pm gets charged 3X as much for electricity between 5 - 8 when they are trying to get the laundry done, watch the news, cook with electric if they don't have gas, and cool the house down on a 107 F day. We know people who were paying $200 a month in power this time last year who are seeing $600 bills."

      Sounds like the utility and EV companies have cali wrapped around their little finger.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rebar View Post
        .......
        Sounds like the utility and EV companies have cali wrapped around their little finger.
        I have lived in California 75 years and one does have to be nimble to get over all the hurdles. I still love my solar and my EVs that were manufactured in California.

        9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rebar
          I pay $1.19 for a gallon of propane.
          I also paid $1.199 this summer to refill my backup propane tanks. But in these parts that price is
          not fixed. I have seen it over $5 in the worst of winter, just about the time many need a refill. Once
          it exceeds about $2.70 a gallon, it becomes cheaper to heat with straight resistance electric. I have
          not said this too loudly locally, because I do not want people burning down buildings using cheap
          electric heaters. But lately the industry has conspired to create a winter SHORTAGE by exporting
          as much propane as possible, then jacking the price (we never actually ran out). I never bought
          any of the mid winter propane, now just a bit at best summer price.

          The natural gas co said the monthly fee would be $28 a month, after a few thousand to hook up.
          Monthly was $2 not so long ago, who knows what will happen next. That is when I went solar.
          Bruce Roe

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by bcroe View Post

            I also paid $1.199 this summer to refill my backup propane tanks. But in these parts that price is
            not fixed. I have seen it over $5 in the worst of winter, just about the time many need a refill. But lately the industry has conspired to create a winter SHORTAGE by exporting
            as much propane as possible, then jacking the price (we never actually ran out). I never bought
            any of the mid winter propane, now just a bit at best summer price.


            Bruce Roe
            From what I was told by century is $1.19 if prepaid and $1.27 if paid monthly on "the plan" I should have asked if that was all winter long..

            Comment


            • #36
              In Northern Calif, walk-in bottle refills are about $2, deliver to house is $3
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by bcroe View Post

                I also paid $1.199 this summer to refill my backup propane tanks. But in these parts that price is
                not fixed. I have seen it over $5 in the worst of winter, just about the time many need a refill. Once
                it exceeds about $2.70 a gallon, it becomes cheaper to heat with straight resistance electric.

                But lately the industry has conspired to create a winter SHORTAGE by exporting
                as much propane as possible, then jacking the price (we never actually ran out). I never bought
                any of the mid winter propane, now just a bit at best summer price.

                The natural gas co said the monthly fee would be $28 a month, after a few thousand to hook up.
                Monthly was $2 not so long ago, who knows what will happen next. That is when I went solar.
                Bruce Roe
                Brutal, but I guess capitalism is what drives individuals and entrepreneurs to new inventions and the latest technologies. And that the rich folks of the world make it go round..

                Last edited by rebar; 08-18-2019, 06:36 AM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Martin Holladay's "How to Design an Off-Grid House" was educational and humbling when I read.. "off-grid electricity is expensive -- on the order of $0.50 to $1.00 per kWh."
                  Considering I have cheap rates at $.13 cents per kWh, PV's not cost effective. The article was written over 2 years ago, but I doubt the figures have dropped much especially with the tariffs?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rebar View Post
                    Martin Holladay's "How to Design an Off-Grid House" was educational and humbling when I read.. "off-grid electricity is expensive -- on the order of $0.50 to $1.00 per kWh."
                    Considering I have cheap rates at $.13 cents per kWh, PV's not cost effective. The article was written over 2 years ago, but I doubt the figures have dropped much especially with the tariffs?
                    Mr. Holladay agrees with and confirms what informed folks have known, experienced or figured out for some time now. Too bad what's known keeps getting rediscovered by the ready, fire, aim crowd. There's really no substitute for experience, but experience gained solely by repeating the same stuff other's have found to be less than satisfactory and that could have been sidestepped w/a little reading/searching is one of the tragedies of life.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rebar View Post
                      Martin Holladay's "How to Design an Off-Grid House" was educational and humbling when I read.. "off-grid electricity is expensive -- on the order of $0.50 to $1.00 per kWh."
                      Considering I have cheap rates at $.13 cents per kWh, PV's not cost effective. The article was written over 2 years ago, but I doubt the figures have dropped much especially with the tariffs?
                      I would be interested to see the assumptions they made to get >$0.50/kWh for off-grid solar...

                      I've been toying with an off-grid system at my house. There are a lot of things you can do to mitigate the cost like overbuilding your solar array.

                      20kWh Industrial PbSO4 Battery $5,000
                      4.4kW Off-Grid Inverter $3,000
                      Charge Controller(s) $1,500
                      8kW of solar $4,000
                      Total ~$13500

                      This system will easily produce >10,000kWh/yr or >200,000kWh over a 20 year life. There's no way the cost will ever exceed $100k.... Where is the additional >$80k in cost coming from? Replacing a battery and inverter that should last >10 years every 2? If you add the cost of a generator and fuel in there the PV system makes even MORE sense since it save on expensive propane or diesel.

                      Even off-grid solar in most places is going to cost <$0.20/kWh... I don't think anyone advocates for going off-grid when the grid is available. If you have a utility that doesn't offer NEM you can undersize your PV system to reduce how much is exported. The cost of self-consumed electricity is going to be much less than $0.13/kWh if the system is sized and oriented correctly.
                      Last edited by nwdiver; 08-25-2019, 04:37 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by nwdiver View Post

                        I would be interested to see the assumptions they made to get >$0.50/kWh for off-grid solar...

                        I've been toying with an off-grid system at my house. There are a lot of things you can do to mitigate the cost like overbuilding your solar array.

                        20kWh Industrial PbSO4 Battery $5,000
                        4.4kW Off-Grid Inverter $3,000
                        Charge Controller(s) $1,500
                        8kW of solar $4,000
                        Total ~$13500

                        This system will easily produce >10,000kWh/yr or >200,000kWh over a 20 year life. There's no way the cost will ever exceed $100k.... Where is the additional >$80k in cost coming from? Replacing a battery and inverter that should last >10 years every 2? If you add the cost of a generator and fuel in there the PV system makes even MORE sense since it save on expensive propane or diesel.

                        Even off-grid solar in most places is going to cost <$0.20/kWh... I don't think anyone advocates for going off-grid when the grid is available. If you have a utility that doesn't offer NEM you can undersize your PV system to reduce how much is exported. The cost of self-consumed electricity is going to be much less than $0.13/kWh if the system is sized and oriented correctly.
                        I'm inexperienced with solar, but a FB friend said his off grid system for his dome home and shop requires twelve Rolls 4volt 1104 AH lead acid at 48 volts. I believe that's 53 kWh. That's more than double the system you mentioned and required to not run his generator.

                        Last edited by rebar; 08-25-2019, 06:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                          Mr. Holladay agrees with and confirms what informed folks have known, experienced or figured out for some time now. Too bad what's known keeps getting rediscovered by the ready, fire, aim crowd. There's really no substitute for experience, but experience gained solely by repeating the same stuff other's have found to be less than satisfactory and that could have been sidestepped w/a little reading/searching is one of the tragedies of life.
                          So what are your PV price per kWh numbers? The calc didn't work when I started this thread and now that it does, I don't need salesmen calling. greenbuildingadvisor Q&A is free and I'm starting to see the agenda here.

                          I actually got a quote from the calculator here even though I stopped when I was asked how many contractors I wanted calling me. lol The calculator said my price from mid america was .28 cents per kWh which is almost 3 times what it actually is.

                          Im out... And again, I see the agenda here.
                          Last edited by rebar; 08-25-2019, 06:55 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Every system will be different per individual lifestyle, # of people, adults/children and climate.

                            Wife & I consume 6kwh in winter, and 12kwh summer (water pumping, higher fridge load)
                            My friends get by on a 300w array, and a pair of golf cart batteries. (husband, wife, 4 m old infant) It all varys depending on invividual style.

                            I also get 5-12 days cloud cover/rain in winter, which for me, requires generator runtime

                            cloudy days Jan2017.png
                            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by rebar View Post

                              So what are your PV price per kWh numbers? The calc didn't work when I started this thread and now that it does, I don't need salesmen calling. greenbuildingadvisor Q&A is free and I'm starting to see the agenda here.
                              Solar is priced per w or kW. Your $/kWh is going to depend on your location. The cost varies a lot from <$1/w for DIY to >$5/w for some higher end turnkey installs (~$3/w is the average for most areas). If you're in a sunny location and DIY your cost of energy could be <$0.02/kWh after incentives.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                In my location in Texas the utility pays 1/2 of what they sell power at for solar installations. So no 1:1 here. When I priced solar their contractor only would quote a 9.4 Kwh system for home, so it appears that magic "10" number in play here also. Looks to be all to their advantage without battery storage for off peak sun hours.

                                I then asked about wind/solar hybrid system to take advantage of an option for dark hours, but they did not want to talk about auxiliary wind options. Many of the solar companies also seem to double as roof companies, surprise!

                                Quite disillusioned getting an installer to meet all needs, looking at DIY and other plans. Definitely going ground mount for ease of access/cleaning as well as Fire, EMI safety.

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