Imagine if you had just bought a solar system in Iowa..

[bcroe]

Seems like most off griders have a big perpetual firewood project, and many give up
on air conditioning. I am net metering because the PoCo provides me a 15,000KWH
storage, free, 100% efficient, zero cost virtual battery storage to carry my summer KWH
over to winter heating. Same plant provides AC and of course power at night.
NO FIREWOOD. Bruce Roe

[nwdiver]

In my location in Texas the utility pays 1/2 of what they sell power at for solar installations. So no 1:1 here. When I priced solar their contractor only would quote a 9.4 Kwh system for home, so it appears that magic "10" number in play here also. Looks to be all to their advantage without battery storage for off peak sun hours.

I then asked about wind/solar hybrid system to take advantage of an option for dark hours, but they did not want to talk about auxiliary wind options. Many of the solar companies also seem to double as roof companies, surprise!

Quite disillusioned getting an installer to meet all needs, looking at DIY and other plans. Definitely going ground mount for ease of access/cleaning as well as Fire, EMI safety.

What part of Texas are you located in? Did you mean 9.4kW or is it a small system that generates ~9.4kWh/day?

Wind is generally not worth the cost. If you want energy when it's not sunny batteries and more solar will be cheaper than small scale wind in TX. You really need a wind turbine >100kW for wind to make any sense. Wind doesn't scale down like solar does.

[TexasGEEK]

In my location in Texas the utility pays 1/2 of what they sell power at for solar installations. So no 1:1 here. When I priced solar their contractor only would quote a 9.4 Kwh system for home, so it appears that magic "10" number in play here also. Looks to be all to their advantage without battery storage for off peak sun hours.

I then asked about wind/solar hybrid system to take advantage of an option for dark hours, but they did not want to talk about auxiliary wind options. Many of the solar companies also seem to double as roof companies, surprise!

Quite disillusioned getting an installer to meet all needs, looking at DIY and other plans. Definitely going ground mount for ease of access/cleaning as well as Fire, EMI safety.

[nwdiver]

So what are your PV price per kWh numbers? The calc didn't work when I started this thread and now that it does, I don't need salesmen calling. greenbuildingadvisor Q&A is free and I'm starting to see the agenda here.

Solar is priced per w or kW. Your $/kWh is going to depend on your location. The cost varies a lot from <$1/w for DIY to >$5/w for some higher end turnkey installs (~$3/w is the average for most areas). If you're in a sunny location and DIY your cost of energy could be <$0.02/kWh after incentives.

[Mike90250]

Every system will be different per individual lifestyle, # of people, adults/children and climate.

Wife & I consume 6kwh in winter, and 12kwh summer (water pumping, higher fridge load)
My friends get by on a 300w array, and a pair of golf cart batteries. (husband, wife, 4 m old infant) It all varys depending on invividual style.

I also get 5-12 days cloud cover/rain in winter, which for me, requires generator runtime

cloudy days Jan2017.png

[rebar]

Mr. Holladay agrees with and confirms what informed folks have known, experienced or figured out for some time now. Too bad what's known keeps getting rediscovered by the ready, fire, aim crowd. There's really no substitute for experience, but experience gained solely by repeating the same stuff other's have found to be less than satisfactory and that could have been sidestepped w/a little reading/searching is one of the tragedies of life.

So what are your PV price per kWh numbers? The calc didn't work when I started this thread and now that it does, I don't need salesmen calling. greenbuildingadvisor Q&A is free and I'm starting to see the agenda here.

I actually got a quote from the calculator here even though I stopped when I was asked how many contractors I wanted calling me. lol The calculator said my price from mid america was .28 cents per kWh which is almost 3 times what it actually is.

Im out... And again, I see the agenda here.

[rebar]

I would be interested to see the assumptions they made to get >$0.50/kWh for off-grid solar...

I've been toying with an off-grid system at my house. There are a lot of things you can do to mitigate the cost like overbuilding your solar array.

20kWh Industrial PbSO4 Battery $5,000
4.4kW Off-Grid Inverter $3,000
Charge Controller(s) $1,500
8kW of solar $4,000
Total ~$13500

This system will easily produce >10,000kWh/yr or >200,000kWh over a 20 year life. There's no way the cost will ever exceed $100k.... Where is the additional >$80k in cost coming from? Replacing a battery and inverter that should last >10 years every 2? If you add the cost of a generator and fuel in there the PV system makes even MORE sense since it save on expensive propane or diesel.

Even off-grid solar in most places is going to cost <$0.20/kWh... I don't think anyone advocates for going off-grid when the grid is available. If you have a utility that doesn't offer NEM you can undersize your PV system to reduce how much is exported. The cost of self-consumed electricity is going to be much less than $0.13/kWh if the system is sized and oriented correctly.

I'm inexperienced with solar, but a FB friend said his off grid system for his dome home and shop requires twelve Rolls 4volt 1104 AH lead acid at 48 volts. I believe that's 53 kWh. That's more than double the system you mentioned and required to not run his generator.

[nwdiver]

Martin Holladay's "How to Design an Off-Grid House" was educational and humbling when I read.. "off-grid electricity is expensive -- on the order of $0.50 to $1.00 per kWh."
Considering I have cheap rates at $.13 cents per kWh, PV's not cost effective. The article was written over 2 years ago, but I doubt the figures have dropped much especially with the tariffs?

I would be interested to see the assumptions they made to get >$0.50/kWh for off-grid solar...

I've been toying with an off-grid system at my house. There are a lot of things you can do to mitigate the cost like overbuilding your solar array.

20kWh Industrial PbSO4 Battery $5,000
4.4kW Off-Grid Inverter $3,000
Charge Controller(s) $1,500
8kW of solar $4,000
Total ~$13500

This system will easily produce >10,000kWh/yr or >200,000kWh over a 20 year life. There's no way the cost will ever exceed $100k.... Where is the additional >$80k in cost coming from? Replacing a battery and inverter that should last >10 years every 2? If you add the cost of a generator and fuel in there the PV system makes even MORE sense since it save on expensive propane or diesel.

Even off-grid solar in most places is going to cost <$0.20/kWh... I don't think anyone advocates for going off-grid when the grid is available. If you have a utility that doesn't offer NEM you can undersize your PV system to reduce how much is exported. The cost of self-consumed electricity is going to be much less than $0.13/kWh if the system is sized and oriented correctly.

[J.P.M.]

Martin Holladay's "How to Design an Off-Grid House" was educational and humbling when I read.. "off-grid electricity is expensive -- on the order of $0.50 to $1.00 per kWh."
Considering I have cheap rates at $.13 cents per kWh, PV's not cost effective. The article was written over 2 years ago, but I doubt the figures have dropped much especially with the tariffs?

Mr. Holladay agrees with and confirms what informed folks have known, experienced or figured out for some time now. Too bad what's known keeps getting rediscovered by the ready, fire, aim crowd. There's really no substitute for experience, but experience gained solely by repeating the same stuff other's have found to be less than satisfactory and that could have been sidestepped w/a little reading/searching is one of the tragedies of life.

[rebar]

Martin Holladay's "How to Design an Off-Grid House" was educational and humbling when I read.. "off-grid electricity is expensive -- on the order of $0.50 to $1.00 per kWh."
Considering I have cheap rates at $.13 cents per kWh, PV's not cost effective. The article was written over 2 years ago, but I doubt the figures have dropped much especially with the tariffs?

[rebar]

I also paid $1.199 this summer to refill my backup propane tanks. But in these parts that price is
not fixed. I have seen it over $5 in the worst of winter, just about the time many need a refill. Once
it exceeds about $2.70 a gallon, it becomes cheaper to heat with straight resistance electric.

But lately the industry has conspired to create a winter SHORTAGE by exporting
as much propane as possible, then jacking the price (we never actually ran out). I never bought
any of the mid winter propane, now just a bit at best summer price.

The natural gas co said the monthly fee would be $28 a month, after a few thousand to hook up.
Monthly was $2 not so long ago, who knows what will happen next. That is when I went solar.
Bruce Roe

Brutal, but I guess capitalism is what drives individuals and entrepreneurs to new inventions and the latest technologies. And that the rich folks of the world make it go round..

[Mike90250]

In Northern Calif, walk-in bottle refills are about $2, deliver to house is $3

[rebar]

I also paid $1.199 this summer to refill my backup propane tanks. But in these parts that price is
not fixed. I have seen it over $5 in the worst of winter, just about the time many need a refill. But lately the industry has conspired to create a winter SHORTAGE by exporting
as much propane as possible, then jacking the price (we never actually ran out). I never bought
any of the mid winter propane, now just a bit at best summer price.


Bruce Roe

From what I was told by century is $1.19 if prepaid and $1.27 if paid monthly on "the plan" I should have asked if that was all winter long..

[bcroe]

I pay $1.19 for a gallon of propane.

I also paid $1.199 this summer to refill my backup propane tanks. But in these parts that price is
not fixed. I have seen it over $5 in the worst of winter, just about the time many need a refill. Once
it exceeds about $2.70 a gallon, it becomes cheaper to heat with straight resistance electric. I have
not said this too loudly locally, because I do not want people burning down buildings using cheap
electric heaters. But lately the industry has conspired to create a winter SHORTAGE by exporting
as much propane as possible, then jacking the price (we never actually ran out). I never bought
any of the mid winter propane, now just a bit at best summer price.

The natural gas co said the monthly fee would be $28 a month, after a few thousand to hook up.
Monthly was $2 not so long ago, who knows what will happen next. That is when I went solar.
Bruce Roe

[Ampster]

.......
Sounds like the utility and EV companies have cali wrapped around their little finger.

I have lived in California 75 years and one does have to be nimble to get over all the hurdles. I still love my solar and my EVs that were manufactured in California.