One thing that keeps crossing my mind lately seems to be a gray area not mentioned much, if at all. If I have a vehicle sufficient for my transportation needs, and fairly new, and I "like" it, where would I put the cost of a new EV to justify an oversized array ? Seems to me the only way to justify an EV before the end of the current vehicle's service life is by savings in fuel and maint. But if I've simply got excess generation capacity, seems like a new EV expense is a costly justification to what may be a mistake (the oversizing of an array).
I appreciate the new car bug, and the Porsche Taycan is gnawing at my brain daily, so maybe the question ought to be something like where does one put the cost of the brain gnaw ?
Even though it's a piddling amount, a yearly over generation payment of 50 bucks or so is still better than a, say, $400 - $500 /mo. payment for a vehicle (say a Chevy Bolt) that may be purchased with the justification of using electricity that may be around because of an ignorant sizing decision and not getting the $50/year.
Not saying it's good/bad, but my guess is a potential PV owner would need to drive a lot of miles/yr. to justify EV cost for the fuel and maint. savings alone over an ICE vehicle, and so, maybe not justifiable for a lot of folks from a cost effectiveness standpoint. However, I certainly appreciate the emotional need that can easily negate sanity with respect to vehicle ownership. I'm sure the makers of EV's feel the same way.
One other thought (and note Ampster - a bit off topic): Suppose EV';s REALLY take off (politics cause gas prices to double/some international B.S. crisis/whatever) with the result being the grid gets pushed past capacity at nite from all the charging taking place. What may/possibly may happen to T.O.U. rates and peak rate times ? Just wonderin'.
Solar and EV's - Great Investment!
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I modeled my use using the TOU rates with SoCal Edison and come up with a $968 surplus over a year. I expect to break even on my current tiered plan. I don't know how they pay me for that as I am sure Edison isn't going to fork over that kind of cash. You were right, I made money selling power back to the grid during the peak hours. With the tiered rates, Edison pays about $0.035/kWh for excess power through the year. How do they pay you on the TOU rate plan? The other problem is I have a $145 true-up due when I change plans. My 12-month billing period ends in May. I had planned on paying that down with excess solar generation, but if I switch, I'll have to write a check. I'll give Edison a call and see what they say.
Thanks for the help, if it actually helps!!!
To optimize the change to TOU you have to change when your true up cost is close to zero. For you that may be April or May. You need to be able to predict that to optimize your recovery because the rate change does NOT go into effect until the next billing period. It is a critical timing thing to optimize the situation. That is the thing SCE won't tell you.Leave a comment:
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The problem is they are ending those great TOU rates on March 1st... Your future should only increase energy demands as you might drive more or get a second EV. I know the 46 cents per kWh sounds crazy, but you would have crazy credits to play with. You could charge your neighbors for level 2 charging at your house
Thanks for the help, if it actually helps!!!Leave a comment:
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Insurance will be higher on any EV, because you are insuring a $35,000 car. It really isn't bad for me, but Safeco tends to be one of the insurance companies that doesn't charge that much extra for Tesla's. I also heard Liberty Insurance is also good for Tesla.
Maintenance is virtually 0 for the Bolt. However, if you are the type of person that needs to bring your car to the dealer to rotate tires and switch cabin air filters, you will still have to pay. I switch my own cabin air filters, takes about a minute to detach glove box to do so. I bring my car to Les Schwab to rotate tires. They do this for free for me since I bought tires in the past from them. I have only been to the dealer for updates and the first two free services. I have spent under $30 in maintenance for two years and 50,000 miles.
The Tesla is about $600 for the yearly service and inspection. They do quite a bit and the 2013 Tesla Model S is a luxury car, so I went into the purchase knowing that I would spend around $2000 minimally for the first 4 years of maintenance. I bought the car used for $35,000, however the original owner paid over $100,000. I have the panoramic roof, air suspension, upgraded audio, etc... Everything is warrantied for 2 years and up to 100,000 miles. The battery still has three years left and unlimited mileage. In fact, the first day I drove off the lot I heard a milling noise from the drive unit. They replaced it under warranty and gave me a P90D Model X as a loaner. I was picking the kids up from school with falcon doors for almost three weeks, it was cool and embarrassing at the same time!
My decision to go EV was more of a lifestyle change. I don't have to spend time with oil changes and filling up gas. I plug the car in each night and have a full tank ready in the morning. Long road trips are a PITA with the Bolt, it only charges at 40 kW maximum. I now only take the Tesla on long road trips. The supercharging network is amazing and takes half the time to charge. It is also free to use if you buy a used Model S, it basically comes with the car. You do have to pay now with new Tesla's. I can get 200 mile range in thirty minutes for free and there are always food places near the superchargers.
My decision to go EV is also an environmental one. I drive a 130 mile commute each day in one of the most polluted areas of the US, the Central Valley in California. With my long commute, I thought it was my responsibility to go electric. I also believe in the technology. An electric drivetrain is much more efficient and EV's have a smaller eco-footprint over their lifetime. These are facts. I want people to see me driving 100% electric and not needing gasoline. I go on 800 mile drives without any worries and I have met some great people. Being an EV owner is being part of a community. Once you drive an EV, even a Chevy Bolt, you will see that gasoline cars are a technology that will soon die.
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JPM makes good points about an EV. They are not really the best economic purchase, unless you meet some criteria- You can take advantage of the subsidies available for them. I got back $13,500 on my Bolt EV making it a $25,000 car after taxes. This is a decent price, but I live in an area that gives good rebates and I am lucky enough to make a great salary to get back the full $7500 federal credit. BTW, this federal credit is BS. Everyone should get it as a rebate IMO.
- You drive a lot! My wife and I put about 50,000 miles a year on our two cars. Before EV's we used to spend upwards of $6000 in gas every year. You only save big on EV's if you drive them a lot.
- To really make out financially with an EV you also need to be in a state with net metering and TOU plans to charge your car at off-peak hours.
Last edited by Ampster; 02-26-2019, 02:18 AM.Leave a comment:
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Jumping in here, because I'm quite interested in the EV game as well...
I've got an 8.3KW system located in Las Vegas NV. I believe we average 5 hours of use-able sunlight in the winter and about 7-9 hours in the summer (maybe more?)
I have not had my system running for a full year yet, but our Net Metering (NMR-405) fee schedule with NVEnergy is that anytime the system puts back on the grid, you receive 95% the going rate (95% of .11= approx $0.10) as a credit that can be used to offset your bill. In the past two months I have seen about $50 in credit to my account, equating to an excess of around 500kWh excess per month...
Both the Chevy Bolt and the Tesla have looked attractive, but as the OP said, it's sticker shock.
My curiosity is, what is the true overall cost of an EV vs ICE?
How much per month is an average EV adding to your usage in kWh?
What is the average Bolt cost per mile?
The Tesla?
For me, by the time insurance, maint, and fuel is factored in (the vehicle is paid off) my Toyota Tacoma runs at approx $0.26 per mile. (ROUGH estimate: my math is based on a few years ago and I may have used slightly different numbers at the time)
(Currently I'm getting about 12 miles to the gal, $3.25 per gallon gas, and about $150 month for insurance.)
I'm traveling around 700 miles a month for my daily commute
35k for a car (esp used!) is pricey, but if $0 gas makes its way into my life, and the price per mile makes sense, the payment for 5 years may be worth it.Last edited by JakeTrilla; 02-26-2019, 02:12 AM.Leave a comment:
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My Enphase report says over that same 1-year period my 10k system of solar panels generated 16,053 kWh.
Solar generation = 16,053 kWh
Pulled in off the grid = 9,163 kWh
Exported to the grid = 9,418 kWh
My EV used 2,649 kWh (Gross consumption as would be reported by my house meter)
I haven't had my EV the full year. I've estimated I use about 294 kWh/month charging it. When you factor in another 3 months of use, I'll use another 883 kWh for the EV making it so I end up buying 630 kWh of electricity by the end of my 12-billing period. If I assume 23 cents for incremental power that is about an extra $150 I will owe in May.
Solar is great in SoCal.Leave a comment:
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I just downloaded my hourly electrical use. Happy to send it to you but doubt you really meant to offer to look at my data. I pulled in 9,163.5 kWh and exported 9,418.5 kWh from the period Feb 20, 2018 to Feb 20, 2019. I first charged my EV on April 26 2018 and have used 2,649 kWh charging it. The 2,649 includes a very small amount of supercharging away from the house and is the actual kWh as expected at my house power meter. I'm a little surprised to have so much excess power back to the grid. .Leave a comment:
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$300 divided by 4828kWhrs is $0.06 per kWhr. It would be hard to beat that rate on a tiered plan. With a TOU plan and an EV you essentially have an opportunity to sell high and buy low. I think @J.P.M ignores that opportunity in his lengthy analysis about purchasing an EV.- You can take advantage of the subsidies available for them. I got back $13,500 on my Bolt EV making it a $25,000 car after taxes. This is a decent price, but I live in an area that gives good rebates and I am lucky enough to make a great salary to get back the full $7500 federal credit. BTW, this federal credit is BS. Everyone should get it as a rebate IMO.
- You drive a lot! My wife and I put about 50,000 miles a year on our two cars. Before EV's we used to spend upwards of $6000 in gas every year. You only save big on EV's if you drive them a lot.
- To really make out financially with an EV you also need to be in a state with net metering and TOU plans to charge your car at off-peak hours.
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I just downloaded my hourly electrical use. Happy to send it to you but doubt you really meant to offer to look at my data. I pulled in 9,163.5 kWh and exported 9,418.5 kWh from the period Feb 20, 2018 to Feb 20, 2019. I first charged my EV on April 26 2018 and have used 2,649 kWh charging it. The 2,649 includes a very small amount of supercharging away from the house and is the actual kWh as expected at my house power meter. I'm a little surprised to have so much excess power back to the grid. .Leave a comment:
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......... I have used 4828 kWh more than what my panels produced, and it will cost me about $300.
I really think that the TOU plan would be best for you, but I can't tell unless I look at your numbers. You can also push many of the intensive energy uses for your house during off peak times. TOU is worth it with an EV!Last edited by Ampster; 02-26-2019, 12:37 AM.Leave a comment:
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When I run the SCE model it says I will save $1/month by switching to a TOU contract over my current tiered rate. I ran the cases in Excel and decided as long as I have excess solar power I am best to stay on a tiered rate plan. Last year I had an excess of power and was paid $0.035/kWh. This year I am charging my EV with that excess power. Depending on the weather and sunshine, I expect to end up the 12-month billing period as perfectly balanced. I paid the monthly minimum all year and charged my EV with very cheap electrons incremental. How would a TOU contract save me any money? It seems I have more to lose with the TOU plan. For example, IF my electricity demand exceeds my solar generation, I could be paying as much as 46 cents on the peak TOU plan to charge my EV. I'll have to dig out my old spreadsheet I made to figure this out and update it. I'm pretty sure the Green Data download handled the export power correctly. I do appreciate your inquiring minds as this is difficult to figure out. If SCE can't do it right, how is Joe Solar Homeowner supposed to know what to do?
Net Peak Usage (kWh)-193Net Part Peak Usage (kWh) -3578
Net Off Peak Usage (kWh) 8597
Net Usage (kWh) 4828
As you can see, solar negates itself for me during peak and part peak usage. I send more energy to the grid during this time then I use. My off peak usage is crazy high, because that is when I charge my cars. I have used 4828 kWh more than what my panels produced, and it will cost me about $300.
I really think that the TOU plan would be best for you, but I can't tell unless I look at your numbers. You can also push many of the intensive energy uses for your house during off peak times. TOU is worth it with an EV!
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When I run the SCE model it says I will save $1/month by switching to a TOU contract over my current tiered rate. I ran the cases in Excel and decided as long as I have excess solar power I am best to stay on a tiered rate plan. Last year I had an excess of power and was paid $0.035/kWh. This year I am charging my EV with that excess power. Depending on the weather and sunshine, I expect to end up the 12-month billing period as perfectly balanced. I paid the monthly minimum all year and charged my EV with very cheap electrons incremental. How would a TOU contract save me any money? It seems I have more to lose with the TOU plan. For example, IF my electricity demand exceeds my solar generation, I could be paying as much as 46 cents on the peak TOU plan to charge my EV. I'll have to dig out my old spreadsheet I made to figure this out and update it. I'm pretty sure the Green Data download handled the export power correctly. I do appreciate your inquiring minds as this is difficult to figure out. If SCE can't do it right, how is Joe Solar Homeowner supposed to know what to do?Leave a comment:
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Right or wrong, I over built my 2014 solar install............ I am on the standard tiered rate of 18 cents for the first 288 kWh and 23 cents for the second tier. I have had several months in the second tier at 23 cents. I need to figure out what rate plan is best for me, but as long as I have excess solar power it seems the tiered rate is reasonable. Clearly not an accurate cost accounting, but in simple terms I have driven the Tesla 10k miles for $144 plus the $56 I would be paid for my excess power at 3.5 cents/kWh. Again, in very simple numbers, $144 + $56 = $60 which is 2 cents per mile. At $3/gallon in SoCal you would have to get 150 MPG to match that cost on gasoline. I'll be interested to see what the final numbers are in May. I will have a years worth of info and can figure what the best rate plan is for me.Last edited by Ampster; 02-25-2019, 04:35 PM.Leave a comment:
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