American manufacturing of solar panels -- worth protecting?

[J.P.M.]

Now *that's* a question for climate science! Let's see what those guys have figured out. I looked around a bit on Google Scholar just now; the 6th hit for
scholar.google.com/scholar?q=what+caused+ice+ages&hl=de&as_sdt=0%2C29 &as_ylo=2010&as_yhi=
looks reputable and related (and 148 other papers cite it already, so it seems relatively influential, too):

science.sciencemag.org/content/339/6123/1060 "Synchronous Change of Atmospheric CO₂ and Antarctic Temperature During the Last Deglacial Warming", 2013
Full text at awi.de/32547/1/parrenin2013s_accepted_all.pdf


That's consistent with the hypothesis that CO2 increases can drive warming, and with the current increase in both atmospheric co2 and temperature.

I'm sure there's a better and more complete answer to your question out there; I could keep looking if you like.

As for your question about how climate forecasting can be useful over a longer time scale than weather forecasting:
it's because climate forecasts only predict average temperature for a large region and long time period. That's a lot easier than predicting whether it will rain on a particular city on a particular day. See e.g. skepticalscience.com/weather-forecasts-vs-climate-models-predictions.htm

Dan: What makes you think we haven't seen what you refer to ? Seems a bit rude and presumptuous to do that.

The way I leaned it, if I have something to offer, I state my views and then offer backup detail, either by reprint or quotation if I'm in an enabling mood, or by reference the source(s) to backup my opinions, if I feel such backup is warranted and or helpful.

You seem not to do that with most of your posts, but instead, only point to cherry picked references, I guess assuming we'll all be able to guess that you agree with what you referenced. Seems lazy and again presumptuous on your part. What you do in such cases adds nothing to the discussion that can't be found elsewhere. It's like you have no opinion of your own and nothing to add to the discussion except what you seem to imply fits your view of reality without offering any substantial reasoning why you may agree with what you reference. It's also safe ( "I never said that").

More arrogance: For you to write: "I'm sure there's a better and more complete answer to your question out there; I could keep looking if you like." - assumes you can do what others are incapable of doing, or that they have not.

You write SK and I treat you in a rude manner. I think (not that you may care) that you treat most everyone in a rude and disrespectful manner in ways I partially describe above. Get some common sense and social awareness and use those new fond attributes to get some manners and be more respectful. It's all about perceptions. Fair enough ?

[SunEagle]

I would have thought that you would have wanted to generate your own electricity so you have control and not be at the mercy of the POCOs. Wouldn't it be great if everyone could be their own power station and export power back to the grid at the going wholesale power rate, not the rate dictated by the POCOs. Not going to happen unless the government legislates for it to happen and I can't see it happening without a fight from the POCOs and other vested interests.

FWIW in Australia the big power generators have been caught playing the wholesale market at the expense of customers and grid reliability. On top of this the gas producers are manipulating the gas market so that although we are a large exporter of gas our gas is costing more in the local market that what it costs delivered in Japan. So much for hands off government and letting private enterprise regulate itself.

Without the POCO's there would be no Grid to export to.

Why are the POCO's so evil? I would say that Insurance companies (medical, auto, life, etc) are bigger and more evil then POCO's.

IMO you are just another narrow minded person that can't determine true priorities to who is screwing you and who is trying to run a business.

[Mike90250]

Getting back on topic - USA made solar panels. What ever happened to the Evergreen panels ? They went under, and sold the rights to china I think. Is anyone building them ?

[Mike90250]

As much as I'd love to devote time to GW & the AGW arguments, this is not the thread for that.
So everybody, stop bringing it up. But first 2 links - not big charts
http://cc.oulu.fi/~usoskin/personal/...008-3Color.pdf (long paper on solar output)
ww.drroyspencer.com/my-global-warming-skepticism-for-dummies/ by a PHD climatologist (Site has raw datasets and explanations of adjustments)
"Unlike the global marching army of climate researchers the IPCC has enlisted, we do not walk in lockstep. We are willing to admit 'we don't really know' , rather than mislead people with phrases like, 'the warming we see is consistent with an increase in CO2', and then have the public think that means, 'we have determined, through our extensive research into all the possibilities, that the warming cannot be due to anything but CO2 "

[jflorey2]

Dan Oil Subsides are not subsidies.

So oil subsidies are not subsidies, but solar subsidies are subsidies.

Well, now that we have that cleared up . . .

(Mike sez) USA made solar panels. What ever happened to the Evergreen panels ? They went under, and sold the rights to china I think. Is anyone building them ?

Not to my knowledge. Their one benefit was that it was a continuous process that did not rely on cutting wafers. Unfortunately, the technology to cut wafers (and reuse the waste) advanced as well, and ended up not being a big a cost issue as originally assumed.

[littleharbor]

It appears the string ribbon cells are still being made. You can buy raw cells inline. String ribbon cells 4.jpg

[jflorey2]

It appears the string ribbon cells are still being made.

I've seen them sold loose like that but I haven't seen any panels being produced with them. Have you?

[littleharbor]

I've seen them sold loose like that but I haven't seen any panels being produced with them. Have you?

Can't say that I have. Nothing in the off grid or grid tie, sized modules. Too bad, I had some Evergreen 205 watt 12 volt panels once. They were very popular when I sold them. They went fast. I notice some members here have them in their signatures, I'd love to find some more.

Mike 90250, any comments?

[SunEagle]

I just read an article concerning solar power tiles made by DeSol. They have incorporated pv cells into the tiles at about 17watts per tile and can be installed as a new roof or on top of an existing roof. The tiles are made in the US and are UL listed.


Look out Tesla. There is a competitor out there.

[jflorey2]

Loo out Tesla. There is a competitor out there.

Good! The more the better. I have no doubt, for example, that the Bolt release helped get the Model 3 finished earlier than it would have otherwise.

[Sunking]

I just read an article concerning solar power tiles made by DeSol. They have incorporated pv cells into the tiles at about 17watts per tile and can be installed as a new roof or on top of an existing roof. The tiles are made in the US and are UL listed.

Can you say an Abortion? One of the main reasons all solar single roofing shingles have failed and gone bankrupt is is wiring. Especially trouble-shooting during and after turn up. It is virtually impossible. Why is there so much trouble. Because thin film panels fail frequently, short lived, and the mass number of connections that are concealed and inaccessible. When you put the two together you end up with an Abortion.

[Mike90250]

Can't say that I have. Nothing in the off grid or grid tie, sized modules. Too bad, I had some Evergreen 205 watt 12 volt panels once. They were very popular when I sold them. They went fast. I notice some members here have them in their signatures, I'd love to find some more.

Mike 90250, any comments?

I've got a 3Kw array of 12V panels, wired for 120VDC, and a 2Kw array of 24V models wired for 170 Vdc. Both seem to be working as expected. 7yr old and 3 yr old respectively.

[solar pete]

I liked the evergreen panels, they were the first panels we sold and installed when we started Solar Wholesalers here in South Oz, got them on all our family and friends houses, had to replace a few of them, 3 I think, still got a pallet sitting in the warehouse in case we need some spares, cheers.

[SunEagle]

Can you say an Abortion? One of the main reasons all solar single roofing shingles have failed and gone bankrupt is is wiring. Especially trouble-shooting during and after turn up. It is virtually impossible. Why is there so much trouble. Because thin film panels fail frequently, short lived, and the mass number of connections that are concealed and inaccessible. When you put the two together you end up with an Abortion.

Yeah. I was wondering how they hooked up all of those 17w panels. But apparently some people have installed the systems and for now are happy with them. There wasn't any mention on the type or manufacturer of the inverters but I would presume they are string type.

[Sunking]

Yeah. I was wondering how they hooked up all of those 17w panels. There wasn't any mention on the type or manufacturer of the inverters but I would presume they are string type.

At 17 watts per panel I cannot imagine any other way it could be done. Can you imagine say a 5000 watt system with 294 Micro Inverters? Perhaps maybe 15 shingles per Micro-Inverter. Bad enough there would be more than 588 connections to fail with String or Micro-Inverters. All of them concealed and inaccessible.

I hope I am missing something, otherwise history will just repeat itself. You can sure bet Musk has himself isolated so when/if it collapse, will not come from his pockets.