Indiana Senate Bill 309

[DanKegel]

More than likely a reason for the POCO's to "seed" the market with charging stations is really an attempt to increase revenue and take it away from the Oil companies that sell gas.

I still hold firm to my statement that without a charging network out at the workplace the sale of short distance EV's will stay flat due to people not wanting to have their car stop working on the way home.

So install more charging stations or develop larger batteries for longer driving distances. Both are motivation for the EV business and not really something for the POCO to invest in.

EVs are getting larger batteries (the Bolt has a range of 238 miles, and recent low-end EVs now go over 100 miles), so that part is sorted.

Trying to understand your position.
Are you opposed to POCOs competing with oil companies for the energy market? (Presumably not, competition is good.)
Are you opposed to POCOs trying to increase usage of their grid during off-peak hours for some reason? (Presumably not; we got into this discussion by looking for ways to avoid increasing electric rates as the customer base gets more efficient.)
Or do you think that it's not cost-effective for them to do it by trying to jump-start ev sales? That's the bet they're making -- that this is going to save them money in the long run.

[SunEagle]

EVs are getting larger batteries (the Bolt has a range of 238 miles, and recent low-end EVs now go over 100 miles), so that part is sorted.

Trying to understand your position.
Are you opposed to POCOs competing with oil companies for the energy market? (Presumably not, competition is good.)
Are you opposed to POCOs trying to increase usage of their grid during off-peak hours for some reason? (Presumably not; we got into this discussion by looking for ways to avoid increasing electric rates as the customer base gets more efficient.)
Or do you think that it's not cost-effective for them to do it by trying to jump-start ev sales? That's the bet they're making -- that this is going to save them money in the long run.

Competition is always good in the market place.

I am not opposed to the POCO's jumping in to increase the number of charging stations for whatever their reason as long as it does not increase my electric rates.

As far as I am concerned, more chargers = more EV's which should drive down the cost per unit. The Bolt is a first step but if size is a factor most people want a bigger car. Just look at the sales of SUV's. They have replaced the old station wagon/van purchasers. Going from that to a small EV is probably not a large market.

[DanKegel]

The Bolt is a first step but if size is a factor most people want a bigger car. Just look at the sales of SUV's. They have replaced the old station wagon/van purchasers. Going from that to a small EV is probably not a large market.

The pickings for plug-in SUVs are indeed slim at the moment: pluginamerica.org/vehicles/?fwp_class=four-door-suv
Do you think it's wrong for POCOs to move on electric charging before plug-in SUVs arrive? Smaller vehicles still have significant market share.

[SunEagle]

The pickings for plug-in SUVs are indeed slim at the moment: pluginamerica.org/vehicles/?fwp_class=four-door-suv
Do you think it's wrong for POCOs to move on electric charging before plug-in SUVs arrive? Smaller vehicles still have significant market share.

Again I really don't care if anyone (car manufacturers, poco, off shore investor, deep pocket greenie) invests in charging systems for EV's as long as those costs don't get transferred to me or anyone else who doesn't own an EV.

It is bad enough that the EV folk don't pay "road taxes" because that is charged at the pump per gallon. All that means is the state will somehow increase my tax to cover those that do not pay it to keep the roads up for everyone to drive on.

[DanKegel]

Again I really don't care if anyone (car manufacturers, poco, off shore investor, deep pocket greenie) invests in charging systems for EV's as long as those costs don't get transferred to me or anyone else who doesn't own an EV.

It is bad enough that the EV folk don't pay "road taxes" because that is charged at the pump per gallon. All that means is the state will somehow increase my tax to cover those that do not pay it to keep the roads up for everyone to drive on.

That helps, thanks.

So you're pessimistic that increasing EV charging will save ratepayers money by keeping grid utilization higher outside peak hours. And even if it did save ratepayers money, you'd still oppose it because you don't think it's fair that EVs don't have to pay fuel taxes. Does that sum it up? (Apologies if I mangled your opinion, paraphrasing is hard.)

You're not alone in that last one. A bill has been introduced in Kansas to charge an extra $150/yr for electric vehicles, cjonline.com/news/local/2017-01-28/kansas-house-bill-calls-special-registration-fees-electric-hybrid-vehicles
(There's no recorded sponsor other than the Transportation Committee, but I see from followthemoney.org/entity-details?eid=13000464 that the chair of that committee got twice as much in contributions from the oil and gas industry as from electric utilities. Could just be coincidence, but KCP&L still might want to up its game here.)

[jflorey2]

I still hold firm to my statement that without a charging network out at the workplace the sale of short distance EV's will stay flat due to people not wanting to have their car stop working on the way home.

While I agree, keep in mind that "charging network" can be nothing more than "a whole lot of outlets."

We were installing J1772 chargers for a while at my place of work. We got up to about 12 total, but 1) they cost about $5000 each to install (with capital, installation and BOS costs) and 2) they were a source of neverending complaints - "Why isn't the blue Leaf moving his car? He's been charged for 3 hours and I have to charge if I want to make it home!"

So instead we started just installing NEMA 5-20 AC outlets. They are about 1/20th the cost each, and since they are inherently low power (max about 1.3kw) there's no moving of cars to be done and no complaining on the mailing lists. We're up to about 100 of them so far.

[DanKegel]

So instead we started just installing NEMA 5-20 AC outlets. They are about 1/20th the cost each, and since they are inherently low power (max about 1.3kw) there's no moving of cars to be done and no complaining on the mailing lists. We're up to about 100 of them so far.

Appropriate technology

[SunEagle]

That helps, thanks.

So you're pessimistic that increasing EV charging will save ratepayers money by keeping grid utilization higher outside peak hours. And even if it did save ratepayers money, you'd still oppose it because you don't think it's fair that EVs don't have to pay fuel taxes. Does that sum it up? (Apologies if I mangled your opinion, paraphrasing is hard.)

.........)

Yes I am a little pessimistic that being able to charge an EV during the day is going to help everyone save money.

While this may be true for some areas of the US I don't think it would be true everywhere due to how power is generated and used. Not everyone has the same culture or follows the same action of usage. So IMO there would be a % of the electric customers that would not benefit cost wise if there were more EV charging done during the day.

[SunEagle]

While I agree, keep in mind that "charging network" can be nothing more than "a whole lot of outlets."

We were installing J1772 chargers for a while at my place of work. We got up to about 12 total, but 1) they cost about $5000 each to install (with capital, installation and BOS costs) and 2) they were a source of neverending complaints - "Why isn't the blue Leaf moving his car? He's been charged for 3 hours and I have to charge if I want to make it home!"

So instead we started just installing NEMA 5-20 AC outlets. They are about 1/20th the cost each, and since they are inherently low power (max about 1.3kw) there's no moving of cars to be done and no complaining on the mailing lists. We're up to about 100 of them so far.

If a standard 20Amp 120v outlet is enough to recharge an EV then I agree that is a better plan. But from what I have seen all EV manufacturer's encourage the owner to install a "fast charger" in their home so it does not take all night to charge. Similarly a slow charger at work may not get you what you want especially if you use that vehicle to go somewhere at lunch.

IMO people want to get a "fast charge" for every thing they own including their cell phones. That is why phone technology has changed to meet the demand of "I want it now and I don't want to wait" attitude.

[J.P.M.]

If a standard 20Amp 120v outlet is enough to recharge an EV then I agree that is a better plan. But from what I have seen all EV manufacturer's encourage the owner to install a "fast charger" in their home so it does not take all night to charge. Similarly a slow charger at work may not get you what you want especially if you use that vehicle to go somewhere at lunch.

IMO people want to get a "fast charge" for every thing they own including their cell phones. That is why phone technology has changed to meet the demand of "I want it now and I don't want to wait" attitude.

With respect to your second point, I'd guess a charging scenario as close to what is currently done for ICE/gasoline fueled with respect to time, convenience and familiarity would be something easier to sell to the public, but it would take a lot more cooperation than we're probably capable of mustering any more.

Standardized batteries and vehicle systems that would accept and operate on all vehicles. Unfortunately, or not, it I'd also guess that looks to be a hard up front sell to the public and a big commitment from mfgs.

Think of the 25 lb. propane cylinders such as those used for gas grills. You own the grill, not the tank. For vehicle batteries, you don't (necessarily) own the container that holds the fuel, you swap it out. For vehicles, you'd pull into a charging station that might look like a carwash or a Costco gas station, etc. Vehicle goes on the line, old battery dropped, new one inserted. 5 min. ? Larger vehicles --->>>> multiple batteries. Home charging would still be an option.

As usual, the devil's in the details. Way down the road, if ever, but maybe a contribution to marketing ideas to help overcome objections/roadblocks if the powers that be are serious about gaining pubic acceptance.

[Sunking]

Well JPM that is the downfall of EV's. There will be no battery standardization in our lifetimes. Every EV manufacture uses different chemistry, size, and shape. Today if you own an EV requires you to own an ICE vehicle for those long trips and cold weather.

As a consumer like myself I demand 400 to 500 mile range with 5 minute refill or as long as it takes me to drain the ole lizard while on a road trip. An EV average wh/mile efficiency is roughly 300 wh/mile for a small EV. More for a family size sedan which does not really exist. Using 300 wh/mile efficiency and 400 mile range requires a 120 Kwh battery. That is a monster battery that does not exist yet. Such a beast would weigh in around 850 Kilograms or 1900 pounds. Guess what? A battery that large does not get 300 wh/mile with my fat butt in the car. Having said that let's pretend I am Dan and believe in such nonsense. If you use a standard 120 volt outlet in your home using 16 amps max rate from the outlet without burning it up would take you roughly 120,000 wh / 1900 watts = 63.15 hours or 2-1/2 days.

If you unplug your dryer and use a 240 volt 30-amp circuit would take 120,000 wh / 6000 w = 20 hours. Still not usable. To get to say 10 minutes would require a 720,000 watt charger. That would require a 3-phase 480 volt is 120,000 / 1.732 * 480 *.8 = 180 amp service. That amount of power is about what a large Walmart uses at any given moment in time. All I can say it is possible.

[jflorey2]

If a standard 20Amp 120v outlet is enough to recharge an EV then I agree that is a better plan. But from what I have seen all EV manufacturer's encourage the owner to install a "fast charger" in their home so it does not take all night to charge. Similarly a slow charger at work may not get you what you want especially if you use that vehicle to go somewhere at lunch. IMO people want to get a "fast charge" for every thing they own including their cell phones. That is why phone technology has changed to meet the demand of "I want it now and I don't want to wait" attitude.

Well, I think you're talking two very different things here.

One is an EVSE, which is a 240 volt plug. It is often (inaccurately) referred to as "charger" but it's just a 240 volt outlet with a special connector, a GFI protector and a "beacon" that tells the car how much power it's allowed to draw. They are pretty slow. Leaf EVSEs are 3.3 or 6.6 kilowatts which means a 4-8 hour charge. You can get a 20kW Tesla charger on the car as an option (normal is 10) but on a 90 kwhr battery that's still a ~5 hour charge. And that's if you have a 100 amp outlet, which is rare.

EVSE's originally were $1000 a piece which was ridiculous - but almost no one made them so they could name their price. Nowadays they run about $350 which is still too much, but is more reasonable. They charge at best at about C/4 which is pretty easy on li-ions.

Then there are fast chargers - external DC chargers that provide 400 volts DC at upwards of 100 amps. These can give you an 80% charge in half an hour and can charge at rates up to 2C, so they're hard on batteries. They cost $20K (recently saw one for $10K) and require 480 volt service.

Another way people refer to these is by level.

Level 1 - 120VAC, 12 amps max. Also referred to as "convenience charging." Uses car's on board charger. J1772 is the standard.
Level 2 - 240VAC, 16 to 100 amps max. Uses car's on board charger. J1772 again.
Level 3 - 400VDC, 100 amps and up. Uses external charger. ChaDeMo and J1772 CCS are the standards here.

We got a level 2 EVSE for free from an early-adopter program and we use it for the Leaf. Works well for us since we sometimes have to charge during the day, and a 2 hour charge gives us enough range to do our standard rounds (school, store etc) If I had to do it now I'd get a Clipper Creek EVSE for $350 and use that. But for workplace charging that's overkill; a 120 volt outlet will give you another 40 miles of range over the course of a day, and that's enough to get 99% of the people who work here home even if they pull in with zero charge for some reason.

[SunEagle]

Well, I think you're talking two very different things here.

One is an EVSE, which is a 240 volt plug. It is often (inaccurately) referred to as "charger" but it's just a 240 volt outlet with a special connector, a GFI protector and a "beacon" that tells the car how much power it's allowed to draw. They are pretty slow. Leaf EVSEs are 3.3 or 6.6 kilowatts which means a 4-8 hour charge. You can get a 20kW Tesla charger on the car as an option (normal is 10) but on a 90 kwhr battery that's still a ~5 hour charge. And that's if you have a 100 amp outlet, which is rare.

EVSE's originally were $1000 a piece which was ridiculous - but almost no one made them so they could name their price. Nowadays they run about $350 which is still too much, but is more reasonable. They charge at best at about C/4 which is pretty easy on li-ions.

Then there are fast chargers - external DC chargers that provide 400 volts DC at upwards of 100 amps. These can give you an 80% charge in half an hour and can charge at rates up to 2C, so they're hard on batteries. They cost $20K (recently saw one for $10K) and require 480 volt service.

Another way people refer to these is by level.

Level 1 - 120VAC, 12 amps max. Also referred to as "convenience charging." Uses car's on board charger. J1772 is the standard.
Level 2 - 240VAC, 16 to 100 amps max. Uses car's on board charger. J1772 again.
Level 3 - 400VDC, 100 amps and up. Uses external charger. ChaDeMo and J1772 CCS are the standards here.

We got a level 2 EVSE for free from an early-adopter program and we use it for the Leaf. Works well for us since we sometimes have to charge during the day, and a 2 hour charge gives us enough range to do our standard rounds (school, store etc) If I had to do it now I'd get a Clipper Creek EVSE for $350 and use that. But for workplace charging that's overkill; a 120 volt outlet will give you another 40 miles of range over the course of a day, and that's enough to get 99% of the people who work here home even if they pull in with zero charge for some reason.

Ok. I stand corrected. I guess a simple 120v outlet will provide enough charging for a small EV to get people back home again.

The problem then is once back home they plug back in and add to the peak demand which is counter to the whole idea for a POCO to install charging systems to "shift" the load to the daytime instead of the evening.

So I do not see daytime EV charging as a game changer for the POCO but it would be good for the EV customer.

[jflorey2]

The problem then is once back home they plug back in and add to the peak demand which is counter to the whole idea for a POCO to install charging systems to "shift" the load to the daytime instead of the evening.

Well, every EV I've seen so far has a charge timer to control when they charge. We do most of our charging between midnight to 8am, which is when demand is lowest.

At work we have a pretty large number of chargers, and that load peaks at about 9:30 when all the EV spots fill up (and everyone starts charging right away because it's free.) It starts to taper off at about 1pm as the cars get to full charge - because very few people need that extra 40 miles of range. The campus has ~450kW of solar that is pretty synchronous to that load, so it's not additional load to the utility there.

Around here the big problem for utilities is the 7pm peak, where most office A/C's and lights are still running but lots of people are home turning on their lights and ovens. That's the peak they _really_ want to shift and EV's don't help with that. (They don't make it much worse, but they also don't help.)

[J.P.M.]

Well JPM that is the downfall of EV's. There will be no battery standardization in our lifetimes. Every EV manufacture uses different chemistry, size, and shape. Today if you own an EV requires you to own an ICE vehicle for those long trips and cold weather.

As a consumer like myself I demand 400 to 500 mile range with 5 minute refill or as long as it takes me to drain the ole lizard while on a road trip. An EV average wh/mile efficiency is roughly 300 wh/mile for a small EV. More for a family size sedan which does not really exist. Using 300 wh/mile efficiency and 400 mile range requires a 120 Kwh battery. That is a monster battery that does not exist yet. Such a beast would weigh in around 850 Kilograms or 1900 pounds. Guess what? A battery that large does not get 300 wh/mile with my fat butt in the car. Having said that let's pretend I am Dan and believe in such nonsense. If you use a standard 120 volt outlet in your home using 16 amps max rate from the outlet without burning it up would take you roughly 120,000 wh / 1900 watts = 63.15 hours or 2-1/2 days.

If you unplug your dryer and use a 240 volt 30-amp circuit would take 120,000 wh / 6000 w = 20 hours. Still not usable. To get to say 10 minutes would require a 720,000 watt charger. That would require a 3-phase 480 volt is 120,000 / 1.732 * 480 *.8 = 180 amp service. That amount of power is about what a large Walmart uses at any given moment in time. All I can say it is possible.

All understood. (H.U.A.).

I believe the Israeli's have been kicking a similar idea (battery swap out) around for some years now. I found that out by broaching the subject to someone pretty high in their solar community some years ago, and got the dumb look, a strong " NU ?? " ( a Yiddish "so ?? ), and some info. Don't know the current state of things there however.

Even I, as much of a prick engineer as the Dan segment of society thinks I (and probably you) can be, have some capability for some Dan type pie in the sky wishful thinking. Some of the difference is, while my imagination is every bit as good or better than the dreamers, I've done things that produce results and know that some part of any such success involves keeping a dozen or more balls in the air - and I've produced results, not just "you could just do this" scattergun speculative crap that's more useful as science fiction.

Back on vehicle charging, FWIW, just like most small propane cylinders are charged before I get to the exchange place, the batteries in a swap out charging station would already be on site and fully charged. Among other things, that would mean a somewhat substantial investment in land, battery inventory and charging equipment. But it would also centralize the power requirement a bit and make off peak use of baseline generation equipment perhaps a bit more effective or practical/manageable.

I'm also not saying battery technology is, or perhaps ever will be, a viable 100 % offset alternate to the ICE, at least, as you say, in our lifetimes. But, it doesn't need to be, nor will it likely ever be an all/nothing world or situation for EV's. In addition to the primary requirement of being competitively priced, if electric vehicles are ever to make a substantial market penetration into transportation, two more requirements, among probably lots of others that must be dealt with before lots of folks get on board are range and ease of use. The range or storage situation means increasing energy density in a safe, workable and practical way. I'd suggest that will require the ability to take a 5,000 lbm vehicle 300 (or 500 or whatever) miles down the road using energy from a battery that has the same volume and weight as about 15 - 25 or so gal. of a petroleum based fuel. I have no idea when, or even if ever, that will be possible, and more importantly viable and practical. But until it is, I'd suggest that's one way to hazard a guess as to when EV's will start to get wide(r) acceptance. One other requirement will be to make a "fill up" as easy, and as geographically available as a current fueling. That's where the swappable battery way of looking at things comes in, if only as one thought experiment. SWAG : Imagine big rest stops on I-40 or I-10 in the middle of the U.S. SW desert backed up by PV farms charging standardized batteries. Passenger vehicles using one or two batteries. Big rigs using 20 or 30, or whatever.

All this somewhat unrealistic mental masturbation and future speculation produces some of the same feeling I get when I occasionally buy a lottery ticket and think "what if ". In that vein, while tangible and measurable results are always the goal, it's possible to dream and not make dreams my master, just as it's possible to think and not make thoughts my aim. So once in a while, I'm not a devil's advocate prick. Seems to me the Dan K's of the world are stuck in the dreaming phase and haven't yet experienced the joys of seeing a project they designed and led come on line and produce something useful, and that's their loss. You and I have a bit of an advantage there. I count my blessings.