Indiana Senate Bill 309

[Sunking]

The utility grid is not the bastion of fairness some here make it out to be. If anyone thinks the cost of schools and roads should be loaded into the kWh rate of the electric bill - I question if they have a pension or income connected to a utility somehow...

Don't be a bonehead. Anyone with a 401K or pension plan has a lot of utility and oil company stock. It is not the company getting the money, it is your goberment.

Care to guess who pays for all the utility incentives mandated upon them. It is all the rate payers paying higher bills to finance your rich butt. The goberment allows/tells the utility to jack rates up to cover the losses. It is a hidden tax in your Kwh rate. Why do you think some states only charge residential customers 5 to 6-cents per Kwh for all the power they want. My son in TX who took over my biz and house just locked in 5.8-cents per Kwh for 3 years. Down from 7.9 cents. If he uses more than 2500 Kwh in a month, the rate GOES DOWN to 5.2-cents per Kwh. Have you figured it out yet?

[jflorey2]

The utility grid is not the bastion of fairness some here make it out to be.

I don't think anyone is claiming that they are a bastion of fairness. They would screw their customers over as hard as they could if they were allowed to; PUC's prevent that from happening (for the most part.) Seems to work OK in most markets.

[SunEagle]

I don't think anyone is claiming that they are a bastion of fairness. They would screw their customers over as hard as they could if they were allowed to; PUC's prevent that from happening (for the most part.) Seems to work OK in most markets.

Unfortunately the PUC can be controlled by the local government. And the government gets "support" from the POCO's.

It all goes round and round. Pick your state and your poison.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for that lesson in economics, though I think that is all pretty obvious. I'm more talking about the ability of local governments using "regulated" monopolies with guaranteed profits to hide how much tax they are collecting from the public. A standard company in my community pays taxes related to the business they are in, and while property tax is a blanket tax to pay for road maintenance and schools - it is out in the open what the levy rate is for each separate "tax".

The utility grid is not the bastion of fairness some here make it out to be. If anyone thinks the cost of schools and roads should be loaded into the kWh rate of the electric bill - I question if they have a pension or income connected to a utility somehow...

You're most welcome. Yea, seemed pretty obvious to me too. I was surprised.

[DanS26]

Here's a perfect example of the discussion here.....Petersburg Alaska. Front page article in the Petersburg Pilot weekly newspaper on February 2, 2017......."New Power Rate Could Help Hospital, Schools".

http://www.petersburgpilot.com/story/2017/02/02/news/new-power-rate-could-help-hospital-schools/5632.html

Local utility wants to raise rates for residential consumers so that rates can be reduced for hospital, schools and other public entities. Yes a hidden tax.

It happens all the time....even in a community near you.

[Sunking]

So why are you not fussing about gasoline. All kinds of hidden taxes at the pump. The oil companies are not making the windfall profits. Profit margins on gasoline are razor thin, some 5-cents per gallon. The big winners are Uncle Sam. Feds get 18.4 cents per gallon at the pump, and states get considerably more like Pennsylvania gets 52.2 cents for every gallon pumped in the tank of a car. Alaska pay the least at 12.25 cents per gallon. If that were not bad enough the city can also add taxes like Chicago 12-cents per gallon up from 5 cents a year ago.. On average you pay 48.18 cents per gallon on gasoline and 54.21 per gallon on diesel.

Want to talk about your cell phone bill and how much hidden taxes there is hidden ? Or perhaps EV's owners who pay nothing? What about the tires on your car. Do you know how much excise tax is hidden there and car batteries?

Do not dare complain about utility hidden Ad Valorem Taxes because you voted for it when you voted to give them the monopoly and franchise rights. You did it, not the utility. Depending on which city and state the vote comes up every 8 to 16 years. All the details are there for you to read. You are going to pay one way or the other.

[DanKegel]

Seems like this got off topic pretty far.
Let's get back to the bill.

pv-magazine-usa.com/2017/01/30/indiana-senate-bill-targets-net-metering-for-elimination/ mentions that it has a provision that would encourage utility scale solar: utilities building solar facilities wouldn't need to get a certificate of public need from the state utility commission.
It also mentions that the bill's author has ties to AEP, a large utility.

So is this bill an example of crony capitalism -- benefiting a big company, and hurting the little guy?

[DanS26]

Seems like this got off topic pretty far.
Let's get back to the bill.

pv-magazine-usa.com/2017/01/30/indiana-senate-bill-targets-net-metering-for-elimination/ mentions that it has a provision that would encourage utility scale solar: utilities building solar facilities wouldn't need to get a certificate of public need from the state utility commission.
It also mentions that the bill's author has ties to AEP, a large utility.

So is this bill an example of crony capitalism -- benefiting a big company, and hurting the little guy?

Dan, you have to understand that business interests control the state legislature here in Indiana. The only lobby stronger than the industrials is the liquor distributors.

Most folks here are satisfied with this arrangement except for those people, like me, who would like to buy a good California Chardonnay and have it shipped to their door. lol

[GRickard]

There was a hearing on this bill today and it looks like some amendments were added, nothing that makes it any better. You can see the progress here.

https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2017/billpacket/88658cab-5861-4364-b11e-6b0074a9bad7/committee_utilities_3800/#document-f31a292c

I read one article that said it would likely be next week before anything happens now. It will need to come up for a vote in committee before it can go to the full senate. I'm still hoping it doesn't make it out of committee.

Greg

[DanS26]

Greg, Indiana Senator Jean Leising is on the Indiana Utilities Senate Committee that will decide on the merits of this proposal. She is from Oldenburg IN and is basically a neighbor of mine.

I have voiced my low opinion of this bill to her and I hope she will listen to reason and fairness. But the utility lobby is very strong..............

[bcroe]

If they try to cancel all the 20 year grid tie contracts, someone will challenge them in court. Bruce Roe

[DanS26]

If they try to cancel all the 20 year grid tie contracts, someone will challenge them in court. Bruce Roe

Bruce, I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that it is unconstitutional to allow a public utility to confiscate property...ie take power produced and used on private property. That is the point where the utilities and their lobbyist overstepped their bounds to protect their turf from competition.

This is not "net metering", it is not "net billing", it is something beyond that.......theft of property comes to mind.

What could be going on here is that the utilities knowing that this protection is too unreasonable will "compromise" for "net billing". Thus getting rid of the "net metering" provisions in Indiana utility law for public utilities. And if nobody protests too much they might get everything they want.........worth a try.

[SunEagle]

Bruce, I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that it is unconstitutional to allow a public utility to confiscate property...ie take power produced and used on private property. That is the point where the utilities and their lobbyist overstepped their bounds to protect their turf from competition.

This is not "net metering", it is not "net billing", it is something beyond that.......theft of property comes to mind.

What could be going on here is that the utilities knowing that this protection is too unreasonable will "compromise" for "net billing". Thus getting rid of the "net metering" provisions in Indiana utility law for public utilities. And if nobody protests too much they might get everything they want.........worth a try.

It wouldn't be stealing if a law is put into affect that you can't be a "co-generator" unless you meet certain criteria including a very large insurance policy to protect you from any liability.

Something similar was pushed on a facility in Erie PA which was part of a large company I use to work for. The local utility put so many restrictions and required safety apparatus before we could send them any unused natural gas from our new well. It turned out to be so expensive we just decided to install equipment (boilers and heaters) that would use 100% of any gas we harvested so we did not have to abide by the POCO's unrealistic and very expensive rules to connect to their gas distribution system.

[DanS26]

It wouldn't be stealing if a law is put into affect that you can't be a "co-generator" unless you meet certain criteria including a very large insurance policy to protect you from any liability.

But that is not what this proposal says........it says that energy produced and consumed on private property.....which never touches the public utility grid.....belongs to the public utility. That is just wrong.

You have a generator at your house....its like the utility says "how much power did you generate while our grid was down?.....now you owe us.

[SunEagle]

But that is not what this proposal says........it says that energy produced and consumed on private property.....which never touches the public utility grid.....belongs to the public utility. That is just wrong.

You have a generator at your house....its like the utility says "how much power did you generate while our grid was down?.....now you owe us.

I agree that the proposal is not fair and in some way may be a form of stealing. But what I am saying is that sometimes the legal system and politics can introduce something that is not in the best interest of the general public and the only way we can fix that is to go to the voting booth or run for office.

On the other side of the conversation, there has been some legislation that has put the POCO's into a corner with a mandatory requirement to produce a % of their power from RE even if that rule huts the POCO. On top of that % RE they have been told to purchase power from small co-generators at much more than what it costs them to purchase power from large co-generators. Again something that hurts a business financially.

Somewhere in between the two sides a new way to figure out how much a kWh is worth in either direction along with how much it costs to maintain the delivery system. I don't know what the answer is, but IMO while it would hurt me to lose full price Net-metering (where the POCO pays the same rate I pay per kWh) the existing process is actually steeling from the POCO.

As I see it, the problem stems from lump sum billing for electricity. The billing should have had more detail as to how much is the production cost and how much is the delivery cost (along with fuel, environment, taxes, fees, etc). Then if the Net meter was based on what it costs to generate a kWh the pay process in both directions would be equal and fair even if neither side likes the outcome.