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  • #61
    Originally posted by beans31

    That makes sense since there are 38 panels up there. I am guessing that the meter that is installed for the SRECs means that solar city is taking that credit. Any idea how much a system around that size goes for new?
    probably about $3.25/w
    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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    • #62
      Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
      Beans, one of the thing I have learned over the years is never wrestle with pig in the mud as the pig likes it . Therefore I am not wasting my time on Butch's bluster. I have a Mass PE license and some of my income comes from Mass SRECs and other credits in Mass so I will gladly let Butch bluster away and play in the "mud" to his hearts content. Believe him if you wish on this, he normally has good input just don't know why he is being so contrary but that is his prerogative. .

      With respect to your power bill I cant comment as I cant see your power bill. I haven't gotten enough into the detail on registration in Mass. I can tell you what I do in NH but cannot guarantee its the same in Mass. The SREC is what is called the renewable attribute. Like paper money, all it is a certificate issued and backed by some entity that says that 1 MWhr of renewable solar power was produced by your system. When you are selling a SREC you are not selling power you are just selling the fact that you generated that much solar power. I have heard SRECs described as bragging rights. Once you sell a SREC in theory you cant brag that your power is coming from the sun. Far more important is the utility has to prove to the state that a certain percentage of their power is coming from solar every quarter and the way they have to do it is buy SRECS as they cannot have their own generation. The problem was who is going to go out on limb and build a solar system that used to cost far more than regular grid power if they didn't get a guarantee what the power was worth?. The solution that Mass did is require the utilities to buy a set amount of Massachusetts produced solar power at a premium or pay a higher penalty . Once that went in place the solar gold rush was on as companies realized that they could make a lot of money effectively guaranteed by the state for a long term (ten years) by selling solar generated power and also sell the SRECS. The interesting part about this approach is the homeowner who puts solar on his roof cuts his power bill by net metering so he sees a benefit every month and then someone else who understood the SREC market could register the system and generate SRECs which can then be sold ultimately to whomever needs them the most. There is also the upfront solar tax credit of 30% or other tax advantages that can be monetized with installing solar so some smart companies realized that they could borrow lots of money and package solar system contracts so they get most of the profits and some homeowner gets enough of a cut that they will let the panels end up on the roof. That appears to be what the prior owner had done. Most of the homeowners are clueless that they signed off on their bragging rights and the potential revenue that comes with it.

      The owner of the system has the right to register the system through NEPOOL https://www.nepoolgis.com/. Once registered there can be a unique GIS number assigned to the system. Its sounds simple like you can look it up somewhere but the tricky part is Solar City most likely registered the system under a common GIS account number covering many systems NEPOOL requires that actual readings be read a minimum of quarterly and that usually is done on line through a online portal that has access to your panel output. On my old school arrays they are not grid connected so I have to put on my shoes and go outside and read my production meter (sperate from the utility meter) a minimum of every quarter and then log onto a portal to report my values and attest they are true. NEPOOL doesn't directly trust me so they have an independent verifier who is supposed to check in on me every so often to make sure I am not lying. I expect with your system its all automatic. If your system is somehow connected to the internet or even a phone line I expect its all done outside of your home. If your system had the capability of not talking to the outside world and still running like my systems and you cut that communication someone would definitely be getting in contact with you as without that reporting they aren't getting SRECs to sell. The owner of the system also has the right to sign over SREC's to a third party, some installers were reportedly doing this and the home owners didn't know it so the installers got the checks instead of the owner. In order to have the SRECs go elsewhere the system owner which is now presumably you will need to reregister the system in your name so the SRECS are credited to you. SRECs are not something you can sell yourself, there are brokers who specialize in selling them. One company I am aware of that does consumer systems is Knollwod Energy https://www.knollwoodenergy.com/srec...-srec-program/ this isn't an endorsement and there are multiple entities that do brokering in that market. I expect a broker like Knollwod may be able to assist in swapping registration to you once you prove it is yours to register. They will then connect with your portal and read your quarterly production and sell them every quarter (with a several quarter lag) and charge you a commission and send you a check for the rest. In NH my firm does not withhold taxes on this income but dependent on what tax advisor (which I am not one) you talk to it is income. Given the piddling checks I get in NH I don't think anyone cares but expect its more serious with a potential 3K a year like your system may be generating.

      Meanwhile your power bill most likely lists the total amount of power your were supplied from the utility last month and then a separate line that lists the total amount of power you sent to your utility. They can not measure how much you used inside the house, its only the power that you are not using at any given time that goes to the utility. if you send more power to the utility than you used it adds to a running credit. The amount of power the utility supplies you is subtracted from the credit total. As long as you have credit at the end of the month you are not paying for power or the other charges related to your usage but you may pay a monthly flat service fee. I pay about $12.50 a month as I have had a credit for five years and in NH that I never have to cash in. I do not know if Mass has this set up but in many areas the utility has gross up once a year where they either pay you something for your credit or pay you nothing and zero the credit out for another year. I don't know how Solar City sized your place so you may be undersized slightly.

      Now you know why the big companies can really confuse a typical homeowner.
      Peakbagger: Thanx for the information and the very thorough explanation. FWIW and IMO only, nicely and professionally presented.

      Beans31: Take this FWIW and as none of my business - read Peakbagger's latest post above a couple of times and let it sink in, and then somehow and additionally, do yourself a big favor and get yourself informed about what you have on your roof - sizes and equipment mfgs. etc., and how it all works.

      As Peakbagger notes, and as it currently seems to me that you may or not be aware, there is likely several thousand $$'s/year in potential SREC revenue here that is entirely separate from and additional to any bill reduction you may see from your utility due to what the system generates.

      After reading this whole thread again, it looks to me that there is a pretty good possibility that Tesla is realizing that SREC revenue, and if so probably doesn't want to part with it. If you take ownership of the system, I'm completely ignorant of whether or not the SREC's may or may not come with that ownership. That's perhaps a legal issue and/or a negotiating tool for one party or the other.

      Not only that, and maybe looking at the bigger picture from Tesla's perspective and side of the table, if they were to walk away from your situation, doing so may have consequences for them with respect to current and future similar situations that may have far more impact on them than your single occurrence. Such consequences, and how Tesla may view them may work both for and against you. For example, they may see it in their best interests to shut you up and walk away with a signoff of some sort from you. Or, they may see doing so (or some other remedy) as having the potential of setting a precedent that makes your situation look like small potatoes when future and similar situations occur and so worth digging in their heels about.

      The Almighty made lawyers partly to sort out such things a lot better than what you'll find here.

      In the meantime, educating yourself at least a bit about solar energy and how residential PV works can't hurt. As I wrote prior, you need an education.

      Take what you may want of the above. Scrap the rest.

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      • #63
        My suspicion is if its a Solar City system they combined them into a package of systems and sold the revenue stream to an outside party long ago. I expect Tesla just inherited the right to service the account and a cut of the profits so it hard to walk away if someone else owns a part of the revenue. Then again this installation may have come along with the Solar City buy out and Tesla owns all the revenue until they sell out.

        In my case in NH, I have one of the earlier systems ever registered for SRECs and I had to file with the PUC to get approved to generate SRECs and I had to submit notarized proof that I own the system and have the right to sell the SRECs. I have an Independent Verifier (IV) that submits my quarterly production to the state and the state issues the SRECs electronically and lets NEPOOL know they were issued. The state issues the SRECs registered to me to my broker and then the broker trades them quarterly. They basically combine mine with others into big block and once a buyer pays them, they transfer the SRECs to the buyer and NEPOOL keeps track of the transaction. The broker then issues a check. As discussed I have a dumb solar system so I have to manually report but with most systems the independent verifier logs onto a website with your system data and transfers it to their report to the state. I expect Tesla has a captive "Independent Verifier with some sort of automated script to read the various system productions and its done automatically. Once you determine the ownership, if you can run your system without it being hooked to the internet I expect you will get a nasty gram when the IV cant read the account. They most likely can claim the SRECs until such point where the account registration is swapped to you so its worth starting the process. Mass could be different as they have different classes of SRECs with different potential values.

        By the way I got my monthly reminder to go out and read my solar production meter and noticed my broker is Knollwood so I do need to disclose I am a customer of them. (last check was $3 for a quarters worth of production as NH SRECs are only selling for $20. They helped me at no charge to get my registration switched over from another broker that stopped answering the phone. My credits were aggregated under the other brokers NEPOOL GIS account number so they swapped it to theirs at no charge. Might be worth contacting them and couple of other firms to see who charges what. I expect before they can make the swap you probably need something signed by a lawyer to prove you are the actual owner but worth contacting them in advance as you may have a few years of SREC checks left and they may be able to tell you what you need. Knollwood recommended an IV for me to use IV.

        They most likely will need the number of panels, a panel spec sheet and the maximum inverter output which will be on the inverter nameplate if you have one. I also had to prove it was a permitted installation signed off by an electrician. I expect if you go to your town office they can give you copy of the permit that was filed and possibly there will be system drawing with all the info you need. If you can safely get up on the roof to the outside side edge of the array in the early morning or evening before its bright sun out, you may be able to use a mechanics inspection mirror with a flashlight and slide it between the roof and the array to read the label on the back of the panel. The label is usually off to the side of the junction box
        in the top third of the panel
        which is the black box with two wires coming out of it that are connected to other wires from other panels. Do not even think about disconnecting or even touching a wire. If you have microinverters, turn off the array before you do this and avoid coming in contact with any wires. I do not know if the Solar Edge optimizers shut off panel output when the inverter is off so I need to punt on that configuration. Ideally you would do it when pitch black out with a strong flashlight as the panel will not be generating any power but the risk of falling off the roof is probably worse than the remote chance of you getting zapped. If you are not comfortable and equipped with the right safety equipment to go on the roof don't do it as a tumble off a roof can be far more expensive than a SREC check.
        Last edited by peakbagger; 05-02-2019, 05:20 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
          My suspicion is if its a Solar City system they combined them into a package of systems and sold the revenue stream to an outside party long ago. I expect Tesla just inherited the right to service the account and a cut of the profits so it hard to walk away if someone else owns a part of the revenue. Then again this installation may have come along with the Solar City buy out and Tesla owns all the revenue until they sell out.
          ......
          My vague understanding of how Solar City financed those PPAs is they either pledged them against loans on a pool of PPAs or sold groups of them to investors. Solar City retained the servicing and there may be recourse back to them if they go into default. I dont know how the merger was structured but Tesla Energy is the successor to Solar City. I am still curious as to what the Title Compny is going to do.
          9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ampster View Post
            I am still curious as to what the Title Compny is going to do.
            If the title company can convince Tesla/Solar City to voluntarily relinquish rights to the system, it would open up all sorts of doors. But if this happens, I don't expect that to be quick or easy.

            How do the SRECs work in Massachusetts? And by this I mean, would the homeowner need to enter meter readings for Tesla to get the SREC revenue, or is it all automated? For our home in Delaware, I have to read the revenue-grade meter periodically and enter the reading into a website, but other states are likely to be different.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by ericy View Post

              If the title company can convince Tesla/Solar City to voluntarily relinquish rights to the system, it would open up all sorts of doors. But if this happens, I don't expect that to be quick or easy..........
              However, if the Title Company can convince Tesla that they have already involuntarily lost their security interest in the panels then it might be easy. It will turn on whether the foreclosure wiped out the lien that secured Teslas interest in the panels.
              9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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              • #67
                Originally posted by ericy View Post

                How do the SRECs work in Massachusetts? And by this I mean, would the homeowner need to enter meter readings for Tesla to get the SREC revenue, or is it all automated? For our home in Delaware, I have to read the revenue-grade meter periodically and enter the reading into a website, but other states are likely to be different.
                No the inverter has a built in Revenue grade meter so the meter readings are automatic over the GSM network.

                You could have put in a connected meter as well but your installer went with a cheaper option.

                IN some states like PA you used to be able to use predicted generation for systems under 5kW. Mine is grandfathered into this in PA so I don't need any readings
                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by beans31
                  I ended up getting my hands on the original install papers from solar city. I am going to assume that any information that I need will be somewhere in them. I also got the original price of the system in 2016, before any tax credits or incentives (just over 47K). I doubt they are just going to let that go without some sort of fight.
                  That is NOT their cost and that is older pricing. Systems are quite a bit cheaper now.

                  They sold the product to a customer that was high risk, their loss has nothing to do with you.
                  OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by beans31
                    I also got the original price of the system in 2016, before any tax credits or incentives (just over 47K). I doubt they are just going to let that go without some sort of fight.
                    Installed in 2016?
                    Most likely it cost them about $3 per DC-watt to install. Maybe a little less.

                    I don't think you've stated the type of panels installed - just the inverter.
                    Since the inverter is 10kW, I'll guesstimate that it is a 11kW system and cost them about $33k to install. (maybe less - maybe 10kW @ $2.75/W ==> $27k)
                    The $47k price tag probably meant they got a $14k credit from the feds. So it really cost them $13k-$19k.
                    And they may have gotten some payments from the previous owner, so knock a few bucks off for that.

                    But really the question is - what's it worth to them?
                    If they can get you to take over the contract it's probably worth $30k+ in today's dollars. (IANAL - but it doesn't look like you have any need to do that. Of course I'm sure they'd be happy to have you voluntarily sign a contract with them.)

                    If they have to remove the system and get what they can for scrap value, it's probably worth -$5k to +$5k.

                    And then there's what they'll have to spend on administrative time and lawyer fees...

                    Right now I think the title insurance company is going to be a big help for you. I probably would talk to a RE lawyer too - show them what Solar City has sent you, and what your title insurance says and get their opinion on what is likely to happen.
                    My *guess* is that the title insurance company will get Solar City to go away. But again, IANAL and I don't know MA laws.

                    BTW - what are the details of your system?
                    You said 38 panels. Do you know what type of panels they are? Or what wattage?

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                    • #70
                      This post is better than a TV mystery. I would tell Tesla that you want a new roof or at least neutral party to inspect your roof for damage after removal. No reason you should suffer from this.

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                      • #71
                        The scam was they were loading as many charges up front as they could get away with to boost the federal rebate on the installed system cost. Its an artificially high installed cost.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by beans31
                          It is actually 36 of these.
                          Do you know if it's the 245W or the 260W version of the Trina modules? or something in between?
                          IMO you'll want to know that eventually anyhow.

                          36 * 260W would be 9360W
                          36 * 245W would be 8820W

                          So the installation probably cost somewhere in the $24k-$28k range for the materials and the subcontractor that did the actual work.

                          BTW - I don't think systems are "quite a bit cheaper" now than they were in 2016. I think they're still in the ~$3/W range.
                          The graph on here says average of $3.57/W or $3.36/W for 2016 vs. $3.05/W for H2'18.
                          So it's saying things have gotten 10-17% cheaper (I think it's high for the numbers for 2016. But maybe it's right for the "average" - which includes a lot of very-profitable-for-the-installer deals)
                          In any case - I'm willing to believe 10% cheaper than ~2 years ago. I would have guessed only ~5%, but 10-17% cheaper seems plausible to me.

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                          • #73
                            Wow! SolarEdge and Trina from Solar City ?!?! That's surprisingly high end stuff from them. Hopefully you'll get to keep it.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                              However, if the Title Company can convince Tesla that they have already involuntarily lost their security interest in the panels then it might be easy. It will turn on whether the foreclosure wiped out the lien that secured Teslas interest in the panels.
                              They might decide they lost their security interest, but choose to not cooperate in transferring anything like SREC or SolarEdge monitoring.

                              What happens if the OP just turns off the inverter? Does that do anything incentivize Tesla to be more cooperative, or does would he just shoot themself in the foot by doing this?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ericy View Post

                                They might decide they lost their security interest, but choose to not cooperate in transferring anything like SREC or SolarEdge monitoring.
                                OP can just registered the inverter himself and take over the monitoring that way.


                                Originally posted by ericy View Post
                                What happens if the OP just turns off the inverter? Does that do anything incentivize Tesla to be more cooperative, or does would he just shoot themself in the foot by doing this?
                                then OP doesn't get the production from the inverter.
                                He could disconnect their monitoring though.
                                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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