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  • #16
    Originally posted by beans31
    ........
    From multiple attorneys i have talked to and what i have been able to read this is still very new case law and a "sticky" area. I will keep everyone updated, and will not contact Tesla 😊
    To me the fundamental issue is whether there was a foreclosure that wiped out the UCC filing. I am not sure it is about case law as much as it is about what the facts are. Also the one question you have not answered that might shed light on the subject is whether you have title insurance? What kind of deed did the bank give you? Was it a warranty deed or a simple quit claim deed? The big letters at the top of the deed might tell you someting about what kind of deed it was.
    Last edited by Ampster; 04-20-2019, 06:13 AM.
    9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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    • #17
      With respect to the value of installation, what Tesla now has on the books for a leased system and what an equivalent purchased system would cost is not going to be the same. Reportedly the business model of these firms was to front load costs into the installation cost to maximize the incentives they would receive on the installation. Then there is the question of how much of a discount or premium that Tesla paid for the assets that they bought from the prior company.

      As for removing the equipment if its proven that they have a right to remove it, you have the right to have the roof restored to original condition and that gets difficult as its highly likely that any warranty on the original roof was voided when the mounts were installed. In theory the solar firm would have to take over responsibility for leaks. Once they pull the equipment, the homeowner is now left with either the mounts still installed with no warranty or patch job with no warranty.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
        With respect to the value of installation, what Tesla now has on the books for a leased system and what an equivalent purchased system would cost is not going to be the same. Reportedly the business model of these firms was to front load costs into the installation cost to maximize the incentives they would receive on the installation. Then there is the question of how much of a discount or premium that Tesla paid for the assets that they bought from the prior company.

        As for removing the equipment if its proven that they have a right to remove it, you have the right to have the roof restored to original condition and that gets difficult as its highly likely that any warranty on the original roof was voided when the mounts were installed. In theory the solar firm would have to take over responsibility for leaks. Once they pull the equipment, the homeowner is now left with either the mounts still installed with no warranty or patch job with no warranty.
        Ahh, more examples of the joys of leasing not talked about by peddlers.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by beans31
          I have stated, we do have title insurance, it's required in MA. I just checked and it is a quitclaim deed. This was a true bank owned foreclosure.
          Sorry, I missed that. In that case, the title company should be dealing with this issue because they guaranteed your title free from encumbrances. I believe a UCC filing is considered an encumbrance.
          9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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          • #20
            The Quitclaim Deed


            The Quitclaim Deed provides the least protection for the buyer of the four main types. Its uses are very limited.

            With a Quitclaim Deed, when the deed is properly completed and executed, it transfers any interest the grantor has in the property to a recipient, called the grantee. The owner, or grantor, then terminates (or quits) any right and claim to the property, thereby allowing the right or claim to transfer to the recipient/grantee.

            Unlike most other property deeds, a Quitclaim Deed contains no title covenant title and therefore offers the grantee no warranty to the status of the property title.




            The General Warranty Deed provides the highest level of protection for the buyer. There are significant covenants or warranties conveyed by the grantor to the buyer/grantee.

            A common question about deeds, in general, is the nature of a general warranty deed and what rights it conveys to the buyer. In all cases, a real estate buyer is best protected by a general warranty deed. The seller or (grantor) conveys the property along with certain covenants or warranties. It is the grantor who is legally bound by these warranties

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            • #21
              Originally posted by PNW_Steve View Post
              The Quitclaim Deed
              The Quitclaim Deed provides the least protection for the buyer of the four main types. Its uses are very limited.
              ........
              The General Warranty Deed provides the highest level of protection for the buyer. There are significant covenants or warranties conveyed by the grantor to the buyer/grantee.
              ......
              That is why I was inquiring about the form of deed. He got a quitclaim deed so the bank didn't warrant anything but they did provide title insurance. Now that he has confirmed he has title insurance he should have the title company communicate with Tesla. A quick read of the policy, particularly the exceptions would clarify. A question for the poster; Did you obtain a loan when you bought it? If so the lender relied on clean title as well and the lender will all go back to the same title policy to make sure their priority is not jeopardized.
              Last edited by Ampster; 04-21-2019, 09:34 AM.
              9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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              • #22
                Does the lawyer know you have title insurance? If so, why hasn't he been talking to the title company? Unless you are getting free legal advice, you are throwing away your money talking to a lawyer when the title compny should be defending your free and clear title. If the title company doesn't respond then your lawyer could be useful to leverage them..

                What do your three family members have to do with this? Were they part of the foreclosure?
                9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by beans31
                  I am talking to a lawyer because am not positive that even if the UCC liens were wiped out it actually wipes out Tesla's right to the panels. I haven't actually met with the lawyer yet, as I have stated 3 or 4 times now, that will happen on Tuesday.

                  I mentioned my 3 family because numerous people have mentioned a true foreclosure, which this was.. because the buying process was more involved than a typical sale.
                  Okay I think I understand your concerns. I still think you could save yourself some time and money by starting with the title company. They also have lawyers to defend your title.
                  You have framed the legal issue well. The question to ask the title company (or the lawyer) is without a security interest (the UCC filing that was wiped out) does Tesla have any right to the system?

                  I don't know what you mean that the buying process was more involved. Is that because of the people involved? Are you referring to the negotiation process? I ran a foreclosure section at a bank many years ago and agreeing on a price and filling out a deed was fairly simple. The bank did have to make sure each of the steps before the foreclosure sale were done properly. From rereading this thread I assume you bought the home after the foreclosure sale where bank took title?
                  Last edited by Ampster; 04-21-2019, 10:32 AM.
                  9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by beans31
                    Update: we met with the lawyer today. He said that he could not find anything that specifically matched our situation. There were a few things close to it in California and Arizona, but they had specific laws. As far as he could tell this hadn't happened in MA yet. From a legal stand point Tesla's interest in the panels were wiped out in the foreclosure, making them fixtures on the house. Tesla also would have been notified when this happened and should have came and got them, or sought money.

                    he said on the other hand Tesla will say that they are not fixtures and personal property and cannot be assumed by the new owner. Which is where it would get tricky and end up in litigation and could get very expensive for us to try to fight them..

                    that our best bet is to call them and say they are ours and play hard ball and see what they offer and try to settle... if they do not, to make sure we have them take out a bond on the roof before they take them down ensuring that it is done correctly
                    Thanks for the update. Very interesting. If your lawyer says there is not definitive answer, then I would say that "Possession is 9/10th of the Law" may now apply. I would not let them on my property.

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                    • #25
                      Still looks to me that you are ignoring the best advice; have your title insurance company resolve it. THEY guaranteed clear title.

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                      • #26
                        Did he say anything about your title policy? Your seller paid for that and you might as well get some value. On the other hand I can understand why a lawyer might not want to give up the chance to get more fees by suggesting you had perhaps a way to get a free defense of your claim that the security interest of Solar City/Tesla was wiped out and become your personal property.

                        Did the lawyer at least read the title policy?
                        Last edited by Ampster; 04-23-2019, 07:50 PM.
                        9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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                        • #27
                          I have suspicion that Tesla's legal counsel is going to be thinking hard about pushing this. They ended up with thousands of potentially screwed up leases. Right now they can threaten legal action to bully folks into accepting leases but once they go to court and potentially loose the case they have a lot tougher time using that lever. At this point it sounds like you are dealing with the minions that implement Tesla policy, at some point it gets pushed up to the level where the policy gets made and that is where decisions get made on the best approach to settle this.

                          Good idea to send the certified notice.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by beans31
                            I plan on calling the title company tomorrow to ask. The lawyer actually wasn't trying to get money out of us. He said taking it to litigation would cost a significant amount of money. That was not the route he recommended. Tesla has a lot of money and a legal team. Plus there is no guarantee that we would win in court anyways. I'm going to see what the title company says, and then decide if I'm going to contact Tesla.
                            .........
                            Court? Your seller paid for a policy of title insurance and the question for the title company is whether that policy covers claims arising from fixture filings (UCC filing). Did the lawyer read the title policy? Have you read the title policy?
                            9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

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                            • #29
                              no matter what 'happens', legally, I would highly doubt that anyone is going to come and 'rip off' any solar panels at your home, or even step on your property, for that matter, whether or not they have a 'claim' to them, or not. These are attached TO your property, and therefore become PART of your property - they are not like a car that can be 'repoed' in the night. Tesla might can eventually push for a lein claim on your property, but that too is probably past tense. They had a deal with a former owner, not you, and they have a contract with the former owner, not you. Your title insurance is designed to handle these types of claims that were not 'caught' by the title lawyer, or mortgage provider - it should by the vehicle that handles this claim by tesla, if any. Tesla is looking for money, not panels.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
                                I have suspicion that Tesla's legal counsel is going to be thinking hard about pushing this. They ended up with thousands of potentially screwed up leases. Right now they can threaten legal action to bully folks into accepting leases but once they go to court and potentially loose the case they have a lot tougher time using that lever. At this point it sounds like you are dealing with the minions that implement Tesla policy, at some point it gets pushed up to the level where the policy gets made and that is where decisions get made on the best approach to settle this.

                                Good idea to send the certified notice.
                                This is an excellent point.
                                While Tesla has an extensive legal team, and the money to fight you, what do they gain from doing it? The value of the panels is not worth them going to court. And if they were to lose, they would lose a huge bargaining chip for any future cases.
                                They are banking on you coming to the table and offering to assume the contract.

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