Where's the rest of the cost?

[foo1bar]

A significant portion of the original price has to pay for labor and a profit above labor cost to the contractor.

Nope.

The kits at HD aren't including labor.

They have a "network of installers they work with", but that price in the first post is only materials.

So a lot of that price is profit margin - either for HD or the supplier. (if it included installation it'd actually be a good deal.)

[foo1bar]

I'd restate the idea of caution with respect to buying Sunpower panels on e-bay.

ditto.

As to your $0.50/STC W, my guess is you're unaware of what's required with respect to materials and probably other things as well. About the best informed DIY'ers have reported around here is ~~ $1.00 - $1.25/STC W +/- a bit.

I thought there was someone who had it well under $1/W.
It was a steeper roof and an East/West install IIRC. And a string inverter I think.
But I can't find that thread now.
I remember being impressed by how low they had gotten in $/W.

For starters, Suggest you get answers to these questions :

What is your annual load is ?
How much of that annual load do you want to offset ? (100% may not be the best choice either economically or practically)
How you are charged for power ?
Is net metering is available to you ?
If you plan to be off grid, do you know the real costs and likely required lifestyle adjustments ? (if not, get ready for some real sticker shock)
I permitting by local authority required ? If so, what's the procedure ?
How will you model potential output from a PV array ?

I'll second that these are good questions to ask yourself before proceeding.

I'd add that checking what local and state incentives are available to you is a very good idea. Sometimes that can make a huge difference in cost of a system.

Personally I spent ~4 months of on/off research into doing solar before I was buying items

[JSchnee21]

In response to the OP's first post.

One can expect to pay between $2.50 and $3.25 per W for a turnkey (all inclusive) PV system. Depending on the region of the country, prevailing wages and margin, and the cost of goods this price still varies fairly widely. So, for example, a SolarEdge 7600H solution, with ~8000W of panels (for examples) will be roughly $20-24K prior to the Federal 30% rebate.

Yes it is true that materials will only be roughly 40-60% of the total cost. The rest being labor, margin, and overhead associated with paperwork, permits, interconnect agreements, engineering drawings, etc.

Many decent panels can be had for $0.70-$1.00 per W. To this you need to add the inverter & rapid shutdown, or SolarEdge/Optimizer, or Enphase Micro inverter solution which typically adds another $0.50 per W (roughly speaking).

But you also have additional balance of system (BOS) -- racking, clips, lags, conduit, various breakers and electrical boxes, etc.

There are a variety of Solar wholesalers (Renvu, AltE, etc.) where you can get a feel for the component prices. They also sell kits, too. There are sites like EnergySage were you can learn more about solar and even gets preliminary quotes / bids from local vendors in your area.

Some things to keep in mind:

1) Always buy your system, never lease

2) While the cost of solar has been rapidly dropping, it's more financially viable in some states than others. Take some time to think about why you want solar, and estimate when you think your system will break even. Usually this takes anywhere from 5 to 10 years depending on the cost of your system, your annual production and consumption, and the cost of power in your state.

3) Few if any reputable solar installers will agree to install your kit/hardware. You can however work with the installer to select the equipment you think you want.

4) Storage is usually not cost effective, save for some rare cases where the PoCo's really stick it to you on Time of Use plans.

Start by looking at how many MWh you use per year. Think about what percentage you want to offset with Solar. There are a number of websites and tools you can use to model a PV solution in your location, orientation, pitch to see how many DC kW you will need to approximate your intended offset.

For example. I live in NJ. Last year I used 13.93 MWh. My 12.2kW DC PV system (37x330W 11.4kW AC SolarEdge) produced 11.81 MWh. So, I offset approximately 84.8% of my consumption. In NJ electricity is pretty cheap. I only pay ~$0.138 per kWh (total -- generation and transmission). So, my solar system saved me $1629.78 on my electric bill last year. But in NJ, I also get SREC's which have been averaging ~$200 per MWh. So I also earned $2362 from the sale of these. So that's roughly $4K of saving per year.

After the Federal Tax rebate, my system was roughly $28K. So @ $4K per year, it will take 7 years to break even -- assuming the value of NJ SREC's is fairly constant (optimistic). Based on electric savings alone, my break even would be closer to 17 years (28K / 1.6K).

Needless to say, were it not for the SREC's, I would not have invested in solar. All of the PPA/Lease crooks try to convince you that energy prices go up 7-10% a year (like it was Higher Ed). Maybe in California this is true (I don't know). But here on the East coast, thanks to Fracking, my energy cost (generation price per kWh) has gone down every year. I've had several years where my generation only cost was from the Poco was $0.07 to $0.09 per kWh -- of course that's for dirty coal. Maybe "clean" coal is more expensive (-:

-Jonathan

[motorcyclemikie]

Thanks for all the information and the procedural approach that needs to be followed. I checked on a building permit, need a self/owner/occupied permit. The power company ($.13KWH) I downloaded the forms to file for grid tying (rapid shutdown -- yes).

I live in California near the Oregon border, I have a mildly sloped T&G beamed roof, with an unobstructed southern exposure.
My annual energy usage -- 6392KWH daily -- 33KWH @ $.13KWH

I am comfortable doing my own electrical work and I have help available when needed.


I spoke with a PV panel salesman, he was ready to ship me 18pcs of new Sunpower P17 335W, Grade B, labeled, (6000W) $1950 landed.

I have a Solaredge SE7600US inverter in mind, WO/optimizers $1200

Name brand Z brackets for roof mounting, EMT, electrical boxes, connectors, ect. $500

I am not sure if the Solaredge SE7600 is a good match for this PV system!


This is the plan, would SOLARDESIGNTOOL be a good design choice for the next step?

I really do appreciate all the help and knowledge that you guys have shown me.
Remember what Archimities once said;

With enough forums I can fix the world!

[foo1bar]

(rapid shutdown -- yes).

So you'll need either Solaredge (inverter + optimizer) or another rapid-shutdown solution (which may be about the same total price.

I live in California near the Oregon border, I have a mildly sloped T&G beamed roof, with an unobstructed southern exposure.

You'll need to plan for the proper setbacks for fireman access to the roof.
(or get a waiver from the local fire dept.)

My annual energy usage -- 6392KWH daily -- 33KWH @ $.13KWH

Plug in 6kW (or whatever) with your location into PVWatts.
You'll need to know the slope of your roof. And if you're oriented straight south (180deg) or slightly off.
You'l select "fixed roof mount" and consensus seems to be that "14.06%" for losses is too high - that 10% is better approximation.

Plug that all in and you'll see what 6kW of panels will generate and can think about going larger or smaller from there.

I spoke with a PV panel salesman, he was ready to ship me 18pcs of new Sunpower P17 335W, Grade B, labeled, (6000W) $1950 landed.

"Grade B" would make me concerned.
but I think that's a good price for modules, so I might be willing to buy a few more than I think I need and have a good chance of having some failures, but still come out with more than enough production for cheaper than I'd get otherwise.
I'd make sure they'll work size wise (roof spacing) AND that they'll work electrically (ex. they're compatible with readily available SE optimizers)
Solaredge does have a design tool that you has many panels pre-filled in. So maybe you can use that to determine what optimizer works with that panel.
(if you do SE inverter you do need SE optimizers - so plan on those. That's going to be ~$60 *18 = $1080.)

You can find the thread I did on my DIY system - use google to find "DIY system in CA; 8.68kw system" thread in this forum.
I listed the items I spent money on. I encourage you to look at and see if you realize other things you hadn't accounted for yet.

Good luck.

[ButchDeal]

I have a Solaredge SE7600US inverter in mind, WO/optimizers $1200

I would make sure it is the SE7600H-US not the SE7600A-US
Also make sure you get the right optimizers for the PV modules you are dealing with.

Name brand Z brackets for roof mounting, EMT, electrical boxes, connectors, ect. $500

Z brackets will not meet fire code for the PV modules. I would highly suggest ironridge and they have an online layout tool

I am not sure if the Solaredge SE7600 is a good match for this PV system!

yes it is a great match and will work well and easily meet all safety requirements
You just need to insure you get the correct optimizers for the PV modules and keep the string lengths within limits.

https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-P5-series-add-on-power-optimizer-datasheet-na.pdf

This is the plan, would SOLARDESIGNTOOL be a good design choice for the next step?

Solardesigntool is decent. I prefer aurora but it costs a bit more.
Many resellers will do a design for you for a pretty reasonable cost.

[motorcyclemikie]

Thanks Butch for the info, I think the Sunpower P17 335W panels @$.32 a watt is a deal I will order within the next couple days. After researching the SE7600H inverter @$1100 I believe this to be a great choice particularly with capability of 11KW for expandability.

I want to roof mount 15 panels in series of five P730 optimizers ( compatible w/SE7600H?) with three series PV panels instead of two. I will buy a box of ten for $500 if that is workable.

I am going to order a lot of 18 pieces of the P17 panels for a few spares.

Tomorrow after my call to Solaredge about SE7600H compatibility with the P730 optimizers, and the counties permitting procedure to get it started, if all is a go then the equipment will get ordered


So $1950 for 18 panels ( 6KWH ), $1100 SE7600H, $500 for 10pcs P730 optimizers ..All new with warranty shipped to me. That totals $3550 or 59 cents a watt, plus an electrician to wire in a AC disconnect, plus 10% for racking, connectors, wiring ect.

I can expand this system another 5KWH for 32 cents a watt plus roof mounting. This is the type of system I think will provide for my needs (6892KWH annual)

If the P730 is a problem i'll go another approach, but this next few days I am going to turn the crank on this before another project pops up.

Thanks for all the knowledge -- it is priceless, and being retired with limited finances this is priceless to me!

[foo1bar]

So $1950 for 18 panels ( 6KWH ), $1100 SE7600H, $500 for 10pcs P730 optimizers ..

I think you're going to be better off with a set of 18 optimizers.
I think Solaredge needs at least 8 optimizers in a string and 9-12 is better. I think the typical setup for 18 modules like you're considering would be 2 strings of 9 optimizers.

I would use Solaredge's design tool. I believe it's available to anyone - just have to give them an email address. They have some sunpower panels - but the model names for them are more than just "P17", so you'll need to figure out which one matches yours by checking that the parameters match.

[ButchDeal]

Thanks Butch for the info, I think the Sunpower P17 335W panels @$.32 a watt is a deal I will order within the next couple days. After researching the SE7600H inverter @$1100 I believe this to be a great choice particularly with capability of 11KW for expandability.

I want to roof mount 15 panels in series of five P730 optimizers ( compatible w/SE7600H?) with three series PV panels instead of two. I will buy a box of ten for $500 if that is workable.

I am going to order a lot of 18 pieces of the P17 panels for a few spares.

Tomorrow after my call to Solaredge about SE7600H compatibility with the P730 optimizers, and the counties permitting procedure to get it started, if all is a go then the equipment will get ordered


So $1950 for 18 panels ( 6KWH ), $1100 SE7600H, $500 for 10pcs P730 optimizers ..All new with warranty shipped to me. That totals $3550 or 59 cents a watt, plus an electrician to wire in a AC disconnect, plus 10% for racking, connectors, wiring ect.

I can expand this system another 5KWH for 32 cents a watt plus roof mounting. This is the type of system I think will provide for my needs (6892KWH annual)

If the P730 is a problem i'll go another approach, but this next few days I am going to turn the crank on this before another project pops up.

Thanks for all the knowledge -- it is priceless, and being retired with limited finances this is priceless to me!

The p730 is for commercial inverters not the residential. You need the single pv module version not the double. The single versions cost about half the double anyway.

[JSchnee21]

It's still not clear to me what the OP's annual energy usage is:
"My annual energy usage -- 6392KWH daily -- 33KWH @ $.13KWH"

Is that 6.4 MWh / yr -- that seems too low. Or is that an average of 33 KWh / day? And thus 12MWh / yr?

My concern is that 6000W DC is a pretty small system -- I'm not sure if it will offset enough of your usage to be very worthwhile (if you're using 12MWh/yr). But certainly use PVWatts or (I prefer) the SolarEdge site designer tool to estimate your production to estimate your annual PV offset.

"particularly with capability of 11KW for expand-ability."

I assume you are referring to the DC to AC ratio here. That is to say, the kW DC / kW AC. Yes, it is true the 7600H permits a larger ratio (11800/7600=1.55x) than the 7600A for example.

BUT, depending on your locations insolation values, orientation, and pitch, as you begin to approach a 1.2x to 1.3x DC/AC ratio you may start to have significant clipping from 11am to 1pm.

Generally, ~9 to 10 kW DC would be a more realistic upper limit for the 7600 -- unless you have a lot of shading, cloudy, foggy, or smoky weather. Or you are combining East and West faces, for example, which you said you are not.

Keep in mind if you are thinking of adding panels later you may need to:

1) Oversize your DC wiring
2) Add additional strings to your inverter
3) Revise / refile your permits and PoCo interconnect agreement(s)

Most PoCo limit residential grid-tie systems to ~90-110% of historical consumption. Many Poco require liability insurance on systems exceeding 10kW.


To me, your "Grade B" panels seem very sketchy. I'm not sure I'd go through so much effort and use questionable panels.

You can buy nice Trina or Hanwha panels for $0.50 to $0.60 per watt, retail:

(www).altestore.com/store/solar-panels-c541/?brand=Hanwha+Solar+&sort=

Probably less at Renvu.

And Panasonic or LG panels for $0.90-$1.20 depending on the model. Canadian Solar used to be a good company too, but after the recent post concerning cracks and burn marks, I think I would skip them.

Just keep in mind that the SE DC Optimizers you choose do vary some depending on the panel type -- 60 cell vs. 72 cell vs 96 cell. As this effects both the wattage and voltage. Each solar cell gives roughly 0.5 to 0.6 Volts per each. So the DC input voltage ranges of the optimizers vary by model (Pxxx)

Similarly, the price difference between the 7600H and the 10000H is only ~$420 -- for example, from AltE.

(www).altestore.com/store/inverters/grid-tie-inverters/solaredge-hd-wave-single-phase-grid-tie-inverters-p40704/#SEDSE7600H
(www).altestore.com/store/inverters/grid-tie-inverters/solaredge-hd-wave-single-phase-grid-tie-inverters-p40704/#SEDSE10000H

Are you planning a load side or line side tap? If Load side, you may be limited to 7600W if you panel board is only 200 Amps.

[JSchnee21]

Renvu has these HANWHA Q CELLS Q.PLUS L G4.2 340W 35MM FRAME POLY 72 CELL for $0.42/W -- minimum quantity 29 panels

$142.80 * 29 = $4,141.20 for 9860W DC -- panels only, inverter and optimizer separate.

Note that you need to create a log in to see Renvue pricing

(www).renvu.com/Solar/Mono-Poly-Crystalline-Solar-Modules/HANWHA-Q-CELLS-Q-PLUS-L-G4-2-340W-35mm-Frame-Poly-72-cell

The LG's are a bit more

LG 355W MONOX PLUS MONO 72 CELL SILVER FRAME 40MM -- $0.61/W, minimum quantity 10. $0.59 / W if you by 25+
(www).renvu.com/Solar/Mono-Poly-Crystalline-Solar-Modules/LG-355W-MonoX-Plus-Mono-72-Cell-Silver-Frame-40mm

NOTE, both of these are 72-cell panels. 60-cell (normal residential) and 96-cell (some Sun Power and most Panasonic) are even more. That said, other than aesthetics there is no real advantage / disadvantage to the number of cells per panel. You just need to be sure to pair it with the correct DC Optimizer (SE) or Microinverter (Enphase).

[motorcyclemikie]

Yes Butch the P730 are for commercial use I get that, so are the Sunpower P17 335w panels. In the bum neighborhood I live in I doubt the neighbors will complain about silver anodized commercial finished panels.
I just got off the phone with Solaredge tech support, they told me the P730 is fully compatible with the SE7600H, and in fact all the inverters/optimizers configurations by them are workable (marketing hype?)

They added that the configuration of 3 series P17 Sunpower panels is within the electrical operational parameters of the P730 optimizer, and it also more matches my array grouping on my roof. At $48ea for the P730 optimizer for 1KW (3x335) that is 5cents a watt for optimization -- leaves more money for other items!

I'm ordering the Solaredge SE7600H and P730's today, the PV panel deal can wait for a couple days.

Next stop today is the county building dept. to find out what racking systems they are comfortable with, I don't want to get on the wrong side of stupid inspectors with authority.

15 panels ( 5KWH ) will take care of 100% of my power usage, I have room and might install the other three panels (spares in my 18 panel order) and see if I get a check from the power co. Wishful thinking!

[NukeEngineer]

Yes Butch the P730 are for commercial use I get that, so are the Sunpower P17 335w panels. In the bum neighborhood I live in I doubt the neighbors will complain about silver anodized commercial finished panels.
I just got off the phone with Solaredge tech support, they told me the P730 is fully compatible with the SE7600H, and in fact all the inverters/optimizers configurations by them are workable (marketing hype?)

What Butch means is that they (P730s) are for the commerical 3-phase 480v inverters, not that they are "silver and ugly". I'm am totally surprised that SE says those work with residential inverters as I've never seen anything that says this is the case.

[motorcyclemikie]

Reset on that!

I ordered the SE7600H for $1049, and canceled my order for the P730 optimizers after double checking with the tech support people at Solaredge. The answers with them about their product is full of misinformation, very shameful but now I understand the level of their tech support!
I seriously suspect I need to actually talk with their engineers to get accurate answers, I am probably making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Time to find the best deal on optimizers.

I was also curious about the daily power usage as opposed to last year. Last year my heat was wood only, I recently installed a 2 ton mini-split unit, therefore the difference in daily usage.

Happy DMLKJ day! Can't do much today but stay in and warm.

[NukeEngineer]

I ordered the SE7600H for $1049

Where did you find that? Those should be about $1400.