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grid tie feasibility on small Oklahoma coop

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  • #16
    Originally posted by df0rster View Post


    Oh wow! What state are you in? Mine basically does net metering month to month only. And I confirmed they add a $10 fee for net metering customers and require a $1m liability policy.

    I did confirm today that they don't require approval in order to do grid tie as long as we use an inverter that will allow no export of power (posted separately with specific questions regarding that option). So I'd have to do something else with excess production.

    I'm estimating to do net metering it will add $40/month to my bill with the insurance, so is it even worth that expense plus additional capacity to produce and sell back 400kwh when I only use 800kwh total/month. I could size my system to provide only my daytime usage and avoid the $40/month in fees.
    If you go ahead you just volunteered for a rate hike. Now why on earth would you do that?
    MSEE, PE

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    • #17
      Originally posted by df0rster View Post
      I'm estimating to do net metering it will add $40/month to my bill with the insurance.
      what insurance company do you have? It cost us about $10 a year to increase our liability coverage.
      OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
        Like I said COOPS are exempt and can do whatever the members want. In th eOP's case they will not even allow them to export. Like any utility, solar i snot needed and they do not want it and Investor owned utilities in states with Net Metering are forced by LAW to mandate export at retail prices.

        Would you work for free?
        I've been reading these forums for awhile and noticed a somewhat consistent disapproval/hatred/anger towards net metering. I asked the engineer from Connexus about net metering while he was at my house and why they pay what they do. He stated it is the cheapest thing they can do to support Green energy. The home owner paid for the system, and the poco can support green energy by spending a tiny fraction of what it would cost them to expand their own system . Them expanding their own solar array=expensive. Them buying excess green energy from their customers = next to nothing. Not sure why so many people on this forum of all places think net metering needs to go away.

        On a side note I asked about other rebates such as the free Honeywell or best wifi thermostat and the $20 monthly bill credit for linking your thermostat to your Connexus account. According to some people on this forum this should go away like net metering. The response I got - and I'd imagine this plays a roll in the solar as well - is that when we give them permission to raise our thermostat temp 2 degrees for 3 hours upto 4 times a month, the amount of capacity in the system that frees up and the amount they get from commercial customers with on demand pricing is exponentially higher. Depending on demand they can make 50-100x their credit to residential users from commercial demand billing accounts.

        Connexus has around 130,000 residential customers and around 11,000 businesses - of those around 68 were solar members as of April. They make BANK off the green electricity they buy from solar over production. Especially vs adding on to their own solar array.
        ​​​​​​

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
          Well:

          1) Why would you need to limit power? There's no penalty for overproducing, and your costs are the same either way. (In fact it's cheaper to overproduce, if that saves you the cost of the current-sense transformers you need to implement the "grid zero" option.)

          2) There is an option called the StorEdge that can be used with a HV battery. It's relatively new; Butch could probably comment on it better than I could. But it's expensive and you wouldn't make the money back, since it does not increase the energy you are generating.
          The StorEdge is not that new but is basically a ramped up SolarEdge SE7600A inverter that can use the LG RESU10H batter or 5e old powerwall 1

          you can do do it without the battery as well using any solaredge inverter and a consumption meter with settings for zero feed in
          OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
            Like I said COOPS are exempt and can do whatever the members want. In th eOP's case they will not even allow them to export. Like any utility, solar i snot needed and they do not want it and Investor owned utilities in states with Net Metering are forced by LAW to mandate export at retail prices.

            Would you work for free?
            Just to be clear, what do you mean by export? I might be using the wrong terms. I am assuming export just means net metering, running my meter in reverse. My Coop allows this and they pay retail but only in a monthly billing period. Their exact wording in the DG manual is "For power produced in excess of on-site requirements, the customer shall be compensated by the retail purchase meter running in reverse (net metering)" and they go on to state that anything in excess of usage during a billing period will be provided at no charge to the cooperative.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by CodeeCB View Post

              I've been reading these forums for awhile and noticed a somewhat consistent disapproval/hatred/anger towards net metering. I asked the engineer from Connexus about net metering while he was at my house and why they pay what they do. He stated it is the cheapest thing they can do to support Green energy.
              The objection is a hidden tax on everyone. Utilities are allowed to raise electric rates to cover for the loses. they incur. Basically your neighbors are paying for your luxury. If you can afford solar, you do not need your neighbors and the poor to subsidize your luxury.

              Of course that is what the engineer told you and would be what I would tell you if I worked for a utility. They are forced my Law to use so called green energy by government they have no use for. So to avoid expenditures and comply with mandates forced upon them, they use your and taxpayers money to comply.

              Many states like T told the feds to shove it and did not implement Mandatory Net Metering Laws, and thus why rates are so low. Most the retailers that allow Grid Tie in TX pay the home owner Wholesale for what they export and buy at retail. That puts the burden of the cost on the homeowner and not your neighbors and the poor.

              As an example where my home is that my Son now lives and owns uses Champion Energy. He pays 7.9 cent per Kwh for the first 2500 Kwh/month. Amy thing in excess of 2500 Kwh/month and the price goes down to around 6-cents per Kwh. Want grid tied? Great you sell (export) at 6-cents per Kwh and buy at 11 cents per Kwh.

              I am all for solar as long as you pay for it and stay out of my pockets.
              MSEE, PE

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                If you go ahead you just volunteered for a rate hike. Now why on earth would you do that?
                because its fun, I really enjoy the technical aspects! And eventually I plan to be off grid anyway like some of my neighbors are now I wouldn't mind just paying the $0.10/kwh but the stupid customer fees they like to keep increasing are what I don't like paying.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

                  what insurance company do you have? It cost us about $10 a year to increase our liability coverage.
                  I haven't checked the price for the liability policy yet with my insurance company. I am probably way high assuming about $300/year.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by df0rster View Post
                    Dont necessarily care if I limit power, I would want to limit export, I just don't want to give it to them for free.
                    Right. But you will have to pay more to not give it to them for free, since you have to integrate a current sensor upstream of the inverter.

                    If you want to spend your own money for no reason other than to "stick it to the man" I guess that's your business.
                    They don't credit me for excess fed in over my current billing cycles usage. SO I could possibly feed it to a water heater, batteries, AC for the shop, etc..
                    You can do that without grid zero. In fact you can do that by just looking at your meter.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by df0rster View Post

                      I plan to be off grid anyway like some of my neighbors are now
                      Don't make that silly mistake. You go from paying POCO 10-cents per Kwh for all you want, to paying your green battery dealer $1 per kwh with a lot of blackouts. Loosing a lot of money is not fun IMO. Must be something they teach in OK.
                      Last edited by Sunking; 06-12-2018, 05:23 PM.
                      MSEE, PE

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                        Right. But you will have to pay more to not give it to them for free, since you have to integrate a current sensor upstream of the inverter.

                        If you want to spend your own money for no reason other than to "stick it to the man" I guess that's your business.

                        You can do that without grid zero. In fact you can do that by just looking at your meter.
                        Not to stick it to them, but why give it away for free if I can easily store/use the power. I imagine I will go forward with a net metering setup and then figure out later how to possibly accomplish some type of energy storage for excess generation. Or maybe they will change their policies to be more green energy friendly! But I doubt it, OK has a lot of gas to burn for cheap electric..

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by df0rster View Post

                          I haven't checked the price for the liability policy yet with my insurance company. I am probably way high assuming about $300/year.
                          When I added solar I called my insurance company (Travelers) and they just wanted to know the number of panels and cost per panel. I have 64 panels if I remember correctly, and they quoted around $8 more a year. I instead increased coverage by the entire cost of the system (around 60g) for around $13 more a year. Worse case scenario I wasn't taking any chances to save $5 a year .

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by df0rster View Post
                            Not to stick it to them, but why give it away for free if I can easily store/use the power.
                            You can't easily store the power. (Batteries cost $$$.)

                            It is very easy to use the power. Going to be over your consumption by 10kwhr that month? Turn on your A/C full blast for a day or so.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by df0rster View Post

                              I haven't checked the price for the liability policy yet with my insurance company. I am probably way high assuming about $300/year.
                              I'm in upstate SC, Duke Energy, State Farm; Duke required I add them as named insured and get a certificate of insurance from State Farm. There was no cost to me. My coverage for liability is 300,000. If I needed to go to a million, the increase is relatively small; I had that when my employer required it, dropping back only saved me (I think, long time ago) $25 or so.

                              Some of the other fees did apply, but, AFAIK, no monthly costs.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                                You can't easily store the power. (Batteries cost $$$.)

                                It is very easy to use the power. Going to be over your consumption by 10kwhr that month? Turn on your A/C full blast for a day or so.
                                I

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