SolarCity Isn't Looking So Terrible

[bcroe]

It sounds like your local installer considers the 65" x 40" panels to be 'standard size', and ergo all others would be non-standard size, thus his reluctance to go to higher wattage (generally 77" x 40").

I have both sizes in service here. The smaller 60 cell are physically manageable for one small guy
(on the ground), the larger 72 cell are not. In my case the latter (older panels) are heavier out of
proportion to size. Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

It sounds like your local installer considers the 65" x 40" panels to be 'standard size', and ergo all others would be non-standard size, thus his reluctance to go to higher wattage (generally 77" x 40"). But I have no idea where he got the thinking of mono panels 'burning up' more so than poly - unless he just has a better margin on the poly panels as others have suggested. Have you asked him why the mono panels are burning up? - and whose/where/when?

The output of all solar pv panels (which includes all designs and material makeup) will be affected by heat. If there is no way to eliminate the heat absorbed then the efficiency is greatly affected.

So I wouldn't say mono is burning up but I will stand by my knowledge that if something isn't done to cool the panel (usually airflow under and over the panel) then they will not work very well and have a limited lifespan.

Based on the data I collected at the U of D back in the 70's, the hardest barrier to efficiency increase for thin film cells was heat. Without the ability to cool those cells they were limited in output efficiency and lifespan.

To support of what I said can be found researching the result of the "stick on" type by UniSolar and DuPont solar shingles. Both of those pv type systems could not last long due to the lack of cooling. So neither are still in business.

[Singuy]

Okay just had the consultation with SC today. Total cost will be 3.25/watt using their newest Panasonic panels, which at 325w a panel can be installed onto my roof and making the 11.7kw needed. The other local installer who refuse monos came as well, 2.7/watt for his poly Amerisolar panels and it's definitely less attractive vs solar city's install. I have to use almost 7 additional panels which definitely looks way worst. The pricing however is much cheaper.

Third company who is a local dealer as well quoted me 3.25/watt for mono Hyundai 290watt panels, and want to charge more for LG 320 watt panels.

Forth local company coming tomorrow and I'll see what his pricing will be. He will be using a 335W mono panel but I'm not sure about the brand or the install price.

So far, Solarcity is still winning unless I want to save some money and use polys. Solarcity representative also said to upload all my proposals and they'll drop their price accordingly.

And as for what reason the anti-mono company gave as his source..his counter-argument was "if Monos are so good, then why isn't Disney using them?..we only use the best panels, and if they were good for FL then we'll be carrying them. Any panels you see that are dark black panels got RIPPED OFF!". I pushed to ask for reputable sources twice, and this is what I got pretty much. Monos are terrible in FL, other people are cheating you if they allow you to use monos, and Solarcity sucks.

[SunEagle]

Okay just had the consultation with SC today. Total cost will be 3.25/watt using their newest Panasonic panels, which at 325w a panel can be installed onto my roof and making the 11.7kw needed. The other local installer who refuse monos came as well, 2.7/watt for his poly Amerisolar panels and it's definitely less attractive vs solar city's install. I have to use almost 7 additional panels which definitely looks way worst. The pricing however is much cheaper.

Third company who is a local dealer as well quoted me 3.25/watt for mono Hyundai 290watt panels, and want to charge more for LG 320 watt panels.

Forth local company coming tomorrow and I'll see what his pricing will be. He will be using a 335W mono panel but I'm not sure about the brand or the install price.

So far, Solarcity is still winning unless I want to save some money and use polys. Solarcity representative also said to upload all my proposals and they'll drop their price accordingly.

And as for what reason the anti-mono company gave as his source..his counter-argument was "if Monos are so good, then why isn't Disney using them?..we only use the best panels, and if they were good for FL then we'll be carrying them. Any panels you see that are dark black panels got RIPPED OFF!". I pushed to ask for reputable sources twice, and this is what I got pretty much. Monos are terrible in FL, other people are cheating you if they allow you to use monos, and Solarcity sucks.

Mono crystal type cells work very well in hot climates like Florida. That salesman is talking pure BS. Poly type cells are usually cheaper to make and may produce power in low light they usually aren't rated the same higher efficiency that Mono are.

Of course the research into solar materials that are in the 40% efficiency range is still going on. That may not be mono crystal type cells but who knows.

[ButchDeal]

their newest Panasonic panels, which at 325w

the 325W Panasonic are black on black.
They also have a 330W Black on White which is their highest performance module. This would give you an 11.88 kW system with the same number of modules.

What inverter is SolarCity using at $3.25/w?

Forth local company coming tomorrow and I'll see what his pricing will be. He will be using a 335W mono panel but I'm not sure about the brand or the install price.

LGs maybe? make sure they are not trying to slip in larger 72 cell modules to get to 335w.

[max2k]

... and Solarcity sucks.

That's the only valuable info he gave you . I wonder what inverter SC is going to use? Please don't sign anything until you fully understand what you're signing and get confirmation from multiple sources, there's no rush for you. If SC behaves like you describe and actually delivers without additional strings attached it would be huge departure from their usual practice. I'll wait to change my opinion about them until I see hard proof.

One more question which is usually asked here first but somehow got lost: how did you come up with 11+ kW system requirement? It is kind of big for residential setting. I recently installed 7.3 kW system for myself knowing it is oversized for my needs which is mostly covering 2 ACs running during 3 months to the tune of $300/month if I keep it barely livable. I don't have EV and not planning to get one soon.

[J.P.M.]

Okay just had the consultation with SC today. Total cost will be 3.25/watt using their newest Panasonic panels, which at 325w a panel can be installed onto my roof and making the 11.7kw needed. The other local installer who refuse monos came as well, 2.7/watt for his poly Amerisolar panels and it's definitely less attractive vs solar city's install. I have to use almost 7 additional panels which definitely looks way worst. The pricing however is much cheaper.

Third company who is a local dealer as well quoted me 3.25/watt for mono Hyundai 290watt panels, and want to charge more for LG 320 watt panels.

Forth local company coming tomorrow and I'll see what his pricing will be. He will be using a 335W mono panel but I'm not sure about the brand or the install price.

So far, Solarcity is still winning unless I want to save some money and use polys. Solarcity representative also said to upload all my proposals and they'll drop their price accordingly.

And as for what reason the anti-mono company gave as his source..his counter-argument was "if Monos are so good, then why isn't Disney using them?..we only use the best panels, and if they were good for FL then we'll be carrying them. Any panels you see that are dark black panels got RIPPED OFF!". I pushed to ask for reputable sources twice, and this is what I got pretty much. Monos are terrible in FL, other people are cheating you if they allow you to use monos, and Solarcity sucks.

Like Max suggests, get more vendors. This guy sounds like an ignorant scumbag.

Do what you want, but having been a peddler for a long time before changing careers and seeing it from the other side, know this: Whatever else you may do, I'd suggest resisting the urges to share prices. Price matching is a fool's errand the vendors love. It also locks in a price that might go lower if customers kept the prices to themselves. You will not get a better price sharing information on price with vendors.

[Singuy]

That's the only valuable info he gave you . I wonder what inverter SC is going to use? Please don't sign anything until you fully understand what you're signing and get confirmation from multiple sources, there's no rush for you. If SC behaves like you describe and actually delivers without additional strings attached it would be huge departure from their usual practice. I'll wait to change my opinion about them until I see hard proof.

What are some of the strings I should watch out for? I'm a cash paying client so I believe there shouldn't be any financial traps dealing with loans.
The representative for SC did mention that they use Solar Edge, ABB, or Delta depending on the situation only their engineers can answer after they go over my roof.

[max2k]

What are some of the strings I should watch out for? I'm a cash paying client so I believe there shouldn't be any financial traps dealing with loans.
The representative for SC did mention that they use Solar Edge, ABB, or Delta depending on the situation only their engineers can answer after they go over my roof.

You'll be signing some installation contract so please make sure you're comfortable with its content. Wonder why they haven't given you their typical one yet?
While I give benefit to SC sales guy the inverter type should be known by now- I'd only go with Solar Edge from the ones he listed. Basically I'd want to avoid situation where I was given quote in $/W and then they sell me bunch of 'add-ons': how on Earth can you compare their quote with anyone else if there's no itemized list of equipment used?

That general question also remains- how did you come up with 11+ kW system size? What I'm driving at is if you can get away with 70-60% size you'd immediately save money on the installation and it would reduce # of required panels on the roof.

[J.P.M.]

What are some of the strings I should watch out for? I'm a cash paying client so I believe there shouldn't be any financial traps dealing with loans.
The representative for SC did mention that they use Solar Edge, ABB, or Delta depending on the situation only their engineers can answer after they go over my roof.

For a few possibilities I've dealt with that might not be aware of:
SC uses a lot of subbed out labor around here, some of which looks like it was hanging around Big Box about 4 hours before I saw them.

Good luck on getting the same person twice if you call them. I haven't got the same person twice, and I've called them more than any other vendor, local or national. Expect your contact to have moved on.

They've also been known to use whatever equipment is available, regardless of what's written on a contract (if anything BTW, from a lot of SC contracts I've seen).

When I do speak with them, the person on the other end is usually to always unaware of much of anything about either the contract I'm calling about, or much of anything about PV.

Lastly, their prices around here, at least for leases, are among the highest. The few purchased systems I've seen also tend to be higher priced. While I'm not a fan of leases, there are quality vendors around here who will install a Sunpower system for less per Watt per month than SC will charge for mongrel equipment with lower installation quality.

[Singuy]

You'll be signing some installation contract so please make sure you're comfortable with its content. Wonder why they haven't given you their typical one yet?
While I give benefit to SC sales guy the inverter type should be known by now- I'd only go with Solar Edge from the ones he listed. Basically I'd want to avoid situation where I was given quote in $/W and then they sell me bunch of 'add-ons': how on Earth can you compare their quote with anyone else if there's no itemized list of equipment used?

That general question also remains- how did you come up with 11+ kW system size? What I'm driving at is if you can get away with 70-60% size you'd immediately save money on the installation and it would reduce # of required panels on the roof.

SC's sales representative pretty much just gives you a proposal draw using google maps a potential cost and dollars per watt. To continue further, I am required to pay a deposit for the engineers to come out and do precise measurements and then give me what's needed. The sales representative said my neighbor, who went with a 15kw system ended up getting two Delta inverters.

My house is 4400 sqft with a pool and 11ft ceilings. There are 3 a/c units. I set my a/c units to off when people are at work and only turn on one unit at a time based on our location in the house at night. 11.7kw actually barely offset my total consumption and will require me to save a lot of credits during the spring months just to get through the summer months. We are going with 11.7kw because anything beyond this will require me to get an umbrella home owners policy mandated by the utility company.

[J.P.M.]

SC's sales representative pretty much just gives you a proposal draw using google maps a potential cost and dollars per watt. To continue further, I am required to pay a deposit for the engineers to come out and do precise measurements and then give me what's needed. The sales representative said my neighbor, who went with a 15kw system ended up getting two Delta inverters.

My house is 4400 sqft with a pool and 11ft ceilings. There are 3 a/c units. I set my a/c units to off when people are at work and only turn on one unit at a time based on our location in the house at night. 11.7kw actually barely offset my total consumption and will require me to save a lot of credits during the spring months just to get through the summer months. We are going with 11.7kw because anything beyond this will require me to get an umbrella home owners policy mandated by the utility company.

Something is amiss here. Most any reputable vendor will do a written proposal and give you a quote.

Do as you wish, and NOMB/money/house/life, but IMO, your solar ignorance is going to get you screwed if you continue down the path with SC. Read the book and get more informed as much as possible before signing anything.

[max2k]

SC's sales representative pretty much just gives you a proposal draw using google maps a potential cost and dollars per watt. To continue further, I am required to pay a deposit for the engineers to come out and do precise measurements and then give me what's needed. The sales representative said my neighbor, who went with a 15kw system ended up getting two Delta inverters.

My house is 4400 sqft with a pool and 11ft ceilings. There are 3 a/c units. I set my a/c units to off when people are at work and only turn on one unit at a time based on our location in the house at night. 11.7kw actually barely offset my total consumption and will require me to save a lot of credits during the spring months just to get through the summer months. We are going with 11.7kw because anything beyond this will require me to get an umbrella home owners policy mandated by the utility company.

I wouldn't be comfortable doing it this way- I'd like to know exact part # of the equipment which I'm buying: it is not the lease, you're going to own it. I could care less what my neighbor got.

you need to do boring homework or this will cost you- overselling PV is one of the most commonly used tricks not even specific to SC. How much kWh do you consume in peak months vs non- peak? There're few ppl here from FL they might chime in with comments. My own annual consumption in SoCal is around 11,000 kWh with about 4,000 kWh falling on 3 months of Jul/Aug/Sep. It was about twice as much before I upgraded my pool pump and replaced all incandescent lights with LEDs. All those upgrades had much quiker ROI and allowed me to install much smaller PV system.

[max2k]

Something is amiss here. Most any reputable vendor will do a written proposal and give you a quote.

Do as you wish, and NOMB/money/house/life, but IMO, your solar ignorance is going to get you screwed if you continue down the path with SC. Read the book and get more informed as much as possible before signing anything.

IMO everything is in place- for a short moment I thought SC might just might have changed - no, all is well with the world

[Singuy]

I wouldn't be comfortable doing it this way- I'd like to know exact part # of the equipment which I'm buying: it is not the lease, you're going to own it. I could care less what my neighbor got.

you need to do boring homework or this will cost you- overselling PV is one of the most commonly used tricks not even specific to SC. How much kWh do you consume in peak months vs non- peak? There're few ppl here from FL they might chime in with comments. My own annual consumption in SoCal is around 11,000 kWh with about 4,000 kWh falling on 3 months of Jul/Aug/Sep. It was about twice as much before I upgraded my pool pump and replaced all incandescent lights with LEDs. All those upgrades had much quiker ROI and allowed me to install much smaller PV system.

My pool is only pulling 300watts/hr and it's a variable pump. 90% of my lights are already LED and we consumed 2400kwh last month(highest ever due to more people in the house so more A/C time), and my lowest was 950kwh the last 12 months. Due to having more people in the house, I actually think we will consume about 30% more this year vs last year. I literally didn't turn on the A/C for 2500 sqft of the house overnight or during the day and now I have to daily because of new people in the house.

All the vendors here are quoting me $$$ over the phone just based on google map and monthly offset(4/5 vendors did this). They provided me with a written proposal with part numbers after they surveyed my roof. SC have not surveyed my roof(requires a 49 dollar refundable deposit) so I'm not seeing them doing out of the ordinary as of yet.