Is Sunpower price difference worth it? -- thoughts, posting as new topic

[J.P.M.]

Just Googled "failure rate solar panels". Almost every story on page one is from 2013 and you would get the impression there is a massive failure rate for solar panels.

Haven't seen it. All I know with some confidence of observation and conversation w/ HOA owners and a lot of walking around is that over 8 years of installs of what's up to something like 1,600 - 1, 880 panels, none have failed. Now, in all honesty, some of those ~ 1,700 panels have only been producing for a few weeks, so the statistic is not as dramatic as it may look. Still, the low probability of failure of a quality product, S.P. or most any other panel from a reputable mfg. seems more than anecdotal at this point.

[Yaryman]

Just Googled "failure rate solar panels". Almost every story on page one is from 2013 and you would get the impression there is a massive failure rate for solar panels.

[J.P.M.]

Curious what others think on this, others seeing Sunpower in the market.
For the Northern California market, I think Sunpower has a good foot-hold here with their headquarters in San Jose and Richmond

For the $2,500 net price difference above on 5.2 kW system comparison example, I think it's a decent sized group of consumers
who look a this and conclude -- and what could sway me a bit-- is that it's not a huge difference in dollar terms, and the value could be there
in the
--company size/25yr history/strength,
-warranty on panels themselves that covers labor, parts and shipping for 25yrs, and lastly,
--just a bonus idea that they feel they're getting a "top-of-the-line" company and panel itself (strength of construction / efficiency bonus) but not having the feeling they're having to pay a huge price difference...for example, it's not like having to pay such a big difference as $37,000 for a BMW 3 series vs $27,000 for a nice Toyota Camry

Curious if others in NorCal have had this experience looking at Sunpower as an option....whether one sees this type of $2,500 diff as not a big deal like in the car market and worth it for 25-yr company / company strength, OR, just not quite worth it, paying extra for warranty you might never need to use on the panels and extra efficiency you might not need and kind of being a sucker for Sunpower marketing?

Thanks....appreciate people's experience if you've gone through this comparing process as well.....

To your last sentence: Over the last 10 years or so, I've gone through it. A lot. Not only for myself, but about 85+ homeowners in my HOA, more than a few of whom own S.P. systems. We just are not in NorCal.

The S.P. owners in my HOA, as a group, and IMO only, that bought S.P., did so based largely based on their ignorance of what they were doing and partly/mostly bought (swallowed) the S.P. hype that owners usually then repeat as a robotic mantra (and BTW, which shows up on this forum ad nauseam from S.P. owners all the time).

Not only were they S.P. systems, but continuing the usual compounding of the reasons for non cost effectiveness, those systems were usually larger than optimum cost effectiveness would indicate.

But then, no salesperson ever got fired for selling too much.

All that seems ironic to me based on the overwhelming reason for solar in the first place - to save money - which reason is often/usually mixed in with some illogical and juvenile notion of getting even with the POCO for what is actually a self induced situation of high electric bills.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm curious to know why you consider the NorCal market so different than other locations with respect to any advantages/disadvantages for S.P. vs. other quality products. Same sun, same product(s). Same competition. Probably some of the same goals ?

Since most S.P. panels are made outside the U.S. except for a small mfg. facility in Malpitas, and other major system components are from all over the place, I don't see an advantage to being near the S.P. hdqrs., except that might skew the average price a smidge lower due to employee discounts.

More pay your money/take your choice, but if long term cost effectiveness and most bang for your buck mean anything in the calculus of residential solar, S.P. is, IMO only, almost always the least cost effective way to provide what is the most expensive means (that is, using PV) to reduce a residential electric bill, at least in the U.S., including NorCal.

[Yaryman]

MarkH180, given the sales pitch you just gave, I could see how many people might think the extra $2500 was worth the "piece of mind".
That would of course be 100% absolutely wrong. But I could see that sales pitch working.

As pointed out already, if ( Sunpower ) make such a great product, and the failure rate for all panels is so low to begin with, why am I paying extra for a warranty I'll never use?

How do most people monitor the output of one panel, or all individual panels in general?

Without individual panel monitoring how would one know a panel died in 10 years?

[DanS26]

Curious what others think on this, others seeing Sunpower in the market.
For the Northern California market, I think Sunpower has a good foot-hold here with their headquarters in San Jose and Richmond

For the $2,500 net price difference above on 5.2 kW system comparison example, I think it's a decent sized group of consumers
who look a this and conclude -- and what could sway me a bit-- is that it's not a huge difference in dollar terms, and the value could be there
in the
--company size/25yr history/strength,
-warranty on panels themselves that covers labor, parts and shipping for 25yrs, and lastly,
--just a bonus idea that they feel they're getting a "top-of-the-line" company and panel itself (strength of construction / efficiency bonus) but not having the feeling they're having to pay a huge price difference...for example, it's not like having to pay such a big difference as $37,000 for a BMW 3 series vs $27,000 for a nice Toyota Camry

Curious if others in NorCal have had this experience looking at Sunpower as an option....whether one sees this type of $2,500 diff as not a big deal like in the car market and worth it for 25-yr company / company strength, OR, just not quite worth it, paying extra for warranty you might never need to use on the panels and extra efficiency you might not need and kind of being a sucker for Sunpower marketing?

Thanks....appreciate people's experience if you've gone through this comparing process as well.....

My 2 cents worth of advice on this discussion is to not place too much value on the warranty claims of Sunpower or any panel manufacturer for that matter. Read those warranty statements very closely. They are worse than battery or tire warranties. If you have a problem you have to prove you have a problem at your cost before a claim is satisfied. In most cases that means an insolation/production test which is then compared to the panel degradation schedule.

The insolation test is costly....you have to demount the panel and then ship it to a certified testing station or have a testing company come to your site. Both very expensive and probably more that the value of the panel in question.

Then if you can prove the warranty claim and the supplier or manufacturer is still in business then they will satisfy the claim with "like kind" panels. That means you are not guarrantied the same specifications in size, color or even performance. In 10 years do you think you will find your exact panel anywhere? Highly unlikely with the rapid tech change in the panel industry.

My advice.......buy a few spare parts on the front end with the money you save by not buying an expensive warranty.

[MarkH180]

So if I'm seeing a .$70/watt DC price difference on a 5.2 kW system between LG/SolarWorld vs. Sunpower, using $3.80/watt base (Northern CA)
This would be: $19,760 vs. $23,400 gross
After 30% fed tax credit: $13,832 net vs. $16,380 net

Curious what others think on this, others seeing Sunpower in the market.
For the Northern California market, I think Sunpower has a good foot-hold here with their headquarters in San Jose and Richmond

For the $2,500 net price difference above on 5.2 kW system comparison example, I think it's a decent sized group of consumers
who look a this and conclude -- and what could sway me a bit-- is that it's not a huge difference in dollar terms, and the value could be there
in the
--company size/25yr history/strength,
-warranty on panels themselves that covers labor, parts and shipping for 25yrs, and lastly,
--just a bonus idea that they feel they're getting a "top-of-the-line" company and panel itself (strength of construction / efficiency bonus) but not having the feeling they're having to pay a huge price difference...for example, it's not like having to pay such a big difference as $37,000 for a BMW 3 series vs $27,000 for a nice Toyota Camry

Curious if others in NorCal have had this experience looking at Sunpower as an option....whether one sees this type of $2,500 diff as not a big deal like in the car market and worth it for 25-yr company / company strength, OR, just not quite worth it, paying extra for warranty you might never need to use on the panels and extra efficiency you might not need and kind of being a sucker for Sunpower marketing?

Thanks....appreciate people's experience if you've gone through this comparing process as well.....

[J.P.M.]

Hi Leffjouie:
Appreciate your opinion as well... Yes I just think I'm more on the side that there are logical, good arguments for paying more for Sunpower....that the argument isn't as simple or as obvious as a smaller footprint or aesthetics are the "main" or "only" different thing Sunpower offers as a company and a product -- that a solar consumer shouldn't necessarily discard Sunpower idea because they've heard it's "too expensive" The other factors you mention including company size and strength, and the extra 25-yr materials/labor/shipping included warranty, can be seen as differentiators from others like LG or SolarWorld.

It's a separate issue the question perception of how much price difference is still "worth it" -- for the 5 kW system example I mentioned if a Sunpower system quote is even a large 15-20% premium +$.70/watt DC more on gross, or about $2,500 more after 30% tax credit. Even if this adds a year to system payback, and you're looking at net comparison let's say
$12,200 vs. $14,700 net after tax credit, I think there are plenty of people in the market that could conclude that Sunpower is a better product / better company / better warranty, and that $2,500 is not out of the budget question, even if the two systems end up producing the same kWh/year.

I do agree that solar panels aren't exactly like the car market since it's not a product that consumers touch/feel each day -- good comment by JPM that you don't buy a Mercedes to carry groceries..... but I think the markets are at least similar in the way that for a car someone could say I just like this brand/reputation/reliability more than the other, and it's worth it to me to pay $2,500 for that car, even though it's a more expensive way to carry the groceries. But if the car has lower cost of maintenance ownership over a long period to have parts/labor covered for any defects, that could be a bonus.

I also think it's interesting and good in solar when looking at it in the context of consumer markets in general, that we're not dealing with a huge price difference such as a $35,000 car vs. a $25,000 car. Consumers are just SO much more familiar with the automobile market, which makes it so much more "known" or acceptable and common to pay $2,500 more for one car vs. another because of differences in brand, features, etc

Cheers and good debate! The more people that give their opinions the better as they look into the home solar market!

--

1.) I may differ with your opinion but respect and share the glory and thankfulness to live in a country that respects your freedom to make a choice.
2.) On choice, one of the reasons I choose to own S.P. stock vs. other R.E., particularly solar equities, is because, IMO, their future is based on how well they play/prey on consumers' ignorance. The above post is, also IMO only, a good example of the results of their efforts at consumer education. Their product is good, Just not good enough to justify the premium. But, it's just business. I'm sure folks who own S.P. systems are as happy as folks who have a Mercedes or 2 parked in their garage.

[MarkH180]

Mark, I agree with your comments. I've found the most vocal voices in solarpaneltalk are not pro S.P. except for footprint.
I went with SunPower and I have no regrets. I found a deal and paid a 10% premium vs. the best LG300 quote I could find.
I plan on being in my home for a very long time. The warranty, the company stability, the footprint, and the claimed production gains were worth the premium in my mind.
I did extensive research and what I found was benefits beyond just the name plate watts (which many base their claims of commoditizing solar). I was able to find good independent stats and spec sheets that showed the benefit in power produced at high temps, low irradiance, and longevity.
I'm sure some may call me a sucker for choosing S.P., but I've definitely spent waaaay too much time searching out the available data on the topic of LG vs. SP..

Hi Leffjouie:
Appreciate your opinion as well... Yes I just think I'm more on the side that there are logical, good arguments for paying more for Sunpower....that the argument isn't as simple or as obvious as a smaller footprint or aesthetics are the "main" or "only" different thing Sunpower offers as a company and a product -- that a solar consumer shouldn't necessarily discard Sunpower idea because they've heard it's "too expensive" The other factors you mention including company size and strength, and the extra 25-yr materials/labor/shipping included warranty, can be seen as differentiators from others like LG or SolarWorld.

It's a separate issue the question perception of how much price difference is still "worth it" -- for the 5 kW system example I mentioned if a Sunpower system quote is even a large 15-20% premium +$.70/watt DC more on gross, or about $2,500 more after 30% tax credit. Even if this adds a year to system payback, and you're looking at net comparison let's say
$12,200 vs. $14,700 net after tax credit, I think there are plenty of people in the market that could conclude that Sunpower is a better product / better company / better warranty, and that $2,500 is not out of the budget question, even if the two systems end up producing the same kWh/year.

I do agree that solar panels aren't exactly like the car market since it's not a product that consumers touch/feel each day -- good comment by JPM that you don't buy a Mercedes to carry groceries..... but I think the markets are at least similar in the way that for a car someone could say I just like this brand/reputation/reliability more than the other, and it's worth it to me to pay $2,500 for that car, even though it's a more expensive way to carry the groceries. But if the car has lower cost of maintenance ownership over a long period to have parts/labor covered for any defects, that could be a bonus.

I also think it's interesting and good in solar when looking at it in the context of consumer markets in general, that we're not dealing with a huge price difference such as a $35,000 car vs. a $25,000 car. Consumers are just SO much more familiar with the automobile market, which makes it so much more "known" or acceptable and common to pay $2,500 more for one car vs. another because of differences in brand, features, etc

Cheers and good debate! The more people that give their opinions the better as they look into the home solar market!

--

[sensij]

FWIW, I saw a contract last month for a E20-327 system, 16.4 kW for $58489... $3.57/W. At that size, I'd be looking for a non-Sunpower system approaching $3.00 / W, so there is still probably a 10%-15% premium in there. Here is the installer for that system:

Home Energy Systems

[J.P.M.]

Hi JPM,

You are correct with our pricing. The company we are working with told me the software used to quote Sunpower's estimated output was updated in mid-December. The update decreased our estimated output figures by ~ 10%, which concerned us. We are very impressed that they added the panel without us requesting it. It says a lot about the company.

Around the same time that we signed our contract, our friend signed a contract with a different installer for 15-SP 327 panels with Solaredge at a price of $3.82/DC, so maybe the price on these panels are coming down. Both installers are reputable companies with a long history as electrical contractors. I should state that I did not create a bidding war between companies and just asked them for their lowest price. My friend, on the other hand, asked companies to bid against each other.

I would not have received such a great price with such a reputable company without this forum.

Thank you for the info.

If you fess up with a vendor's name, others may be able to garner a better price for whatever panel they choose. At $3.82/Watt, S.P.'s getting pretty close to cost competitive. I've not had an eyeball on a S.P. contract that low yet.

[MKI]

So you started out with a 13 X 327 W contract at $4.00/Watt (?) ~ = $17,000, got a free panel, kept the $17K price and brought the per Watt price down to (13/14) X$4.00 = $3.71/Watt ?

Something however, still does not seem quite right with the statement about 10% annual output decrease in San Diego. I haven't seen a 10% decrease in irradiance for the 30 months or so I've been measuring it.

Hi JPM,

You are correct with our pricing. The company we are working with told me the software used to quote Sunpower's estimated output was updated in mid-December. The update decreased our estimated output figures by ~ 10%, which concerned us. We are very impressed that they added the panel without us requesting it. It says a lot about the company.

Around the same time that we signed our contract, our friend signed a contract with a different installer for 15-SP 327 panels with Solaredge at a price of $3.82/DC, so maybe the price on these panels are coming down. Both installers are reputable companies with a long history as electrical contractors. I should state that I did not create a bidding war between companies and just asked them for their lowest price. My friend, on the other hand, asked companies to bid against each other.

I would not have received such a great price with such a reputable company without this forum.

[J.P.M.]

Hi, I just wanted to provide my experience to assist others. Our installer added a panel for free after our contract was signed 6 weeks prior so it didn't provide them any advantage except goodwill. We had over 13 companies provide quotes so were very confident in analyzing our premium. For reference, we are paying $3.71/DC for a 4.58 DC system in San Diego. Our lowest quote was $3.63 (LG) and highest was $4.59 (SP).

So you started out with a 13 X 327 W contract at $4.00/Watt (?) ~ = $17,000, got a free panel, kept the $17K price and brought the per Watt price down to (13/14) X$4.00 = $3.71/Watt ? Seems like a good deal to me. Be prepared to provide the installers name for a bunch of other San Diego posters looking for what is pretty close to LG pricing for S.P. equipment.

Also, that $3.71/$3.63 premium for S.P. looks pretty good at ~ 2% or a bit more over LG. Compared to other S.P. quotes and systems, you got a steal. Care to share the vendor's name now ? It'll sure lower some prices around here for everyone if you do.

Something however, still does not seem quite right with the statement about 10% annual output decrease in San Diego. I haven't seen a 10% decrease in irradiance for the 30 months or so I've been measuring it.

[MKI]

Hi, I just wanted to provide my experience to assist others. Our installer added a panel for free after our contract was signed 6 weeks prior so it didn't provide them any advantage except goodwill. We had over 13 companies provide quotes so were very confident in analyzing our premium. For reference, we are paying $3.71/DC for a 4.58 DC system in San Diego. Our lowest quote was $3.63 (LG) and highest was $4.59 (SP).

[J.P.M.]

We are a few weeks away from our system being installed!. We picked the number of panels required based on their annual output and chose Sunpower panels (the premium over LG was closer to 8%). In the midst of our contract signing Sunpower decreased their annual power estimates for San Diego by ~10% which meant the difference of one additional panel for our house. Lucky for us, we focused on performance when signing our contract and picked a reputable and honest installer that added the additional panel at no extra cost. So, when comparing quotes I would not just look at $/DC but also what the starting performance guarantee will be.

I would also like to thank this forum for all your insight and assistance in helping us make such an informed purchasing decision!

Not so much directed at the OP, but for others thinking about solar but not committed yet:

Without knowing what your situation is and what you were quoted for systems with both panels, I'd wonder if the 8% premium was more a matter of the LG being overpriced vs. the S.P. being that competitive. Caveat Emptor.

It isn't the # or size of the panels, it's the system size that counts. 5,000 lbs. of rocks or 5,000 lbs. of pebbles weigh the same.

I don't understand what " Sunpower decreased their annual power estimates for San Diego by ~ 10%" means. If that's what someone did actually say, it's B.S. unless you're getting the new "Performance series" panel that's not supposed to be around until later this year, w/ panel STC's of about 17% or so and a lower price than the usual S.P. premium. However and also, those panels are supposed to be commercial Or, as it sounds like might have happened, the S.P. vendor (if the quotes were from competing vendors) may have found out where the LG quoted price was and used that 10% line as a reason to get closer in price by throwing in a panel without looking like they were dropping their pants for a sale. Without knowing the whole story, could be lots of reasons.

The performance will be the approximately the same for equal (electrical) sized systems, LG or S.P. One will cost 8% more up front. Either will probably have equally and acceptably low probability of failure for as long as you're likely to own them.

Performance guarantees are a marketing tool. Their trigger thresholds are so low you've got to be careful you don't trip over them. Read them. You'll never have a successful warranty claim.

There is certainly a lot more to buying PV than simply low dollar. If you have a reputable installer and a quality product, that's worth a slight premium. Paying an 8% premium for S.P. is getting closer to where their worth is as part of an electrical generating system, but IMO, if cost effectiveness and most long term bang for the buck are a priority, that is still too high for what you may be getting.

Unless something is unusual about an install, the going rate around here for a decent LG or other non S.P. system is about $3.50/Watt or so with some sharp, but not a lot of, negotiating. Much more than that and money is being left on the table.

[MKI]

We are a few weeks away from our system being installed!. We picked the number of panels required based on their annual output and chose Sunpower panels (the premium over LG was closer to 8%). In the midst of our contract signing Sunpower decreased their annual power estimates for San Diego by ~10% which meant the difference of one additional panel for our house. Lucky for us, we focused on performance when signing our contract and picked a reputable and honest installer that added the additional panel at no extra cost. So, when comparing quotes I would not just look at $/DC but also what the starting performance guarantee will be.

I would also like to thank this forum for all your insight and assistance in helping us make such an informed purchasing decision!