Is Sunpower price difference worth it? -- thoughts, posting as new topic

[J.P.M.]

Lol. I appreciate your humor guys - tripod I lol'd. Didn't know about PVOutput until yesterday. I uploaded my results to LavaSunPower. Unfortunately, not many arrays in my zipcode that I can compare to. I certainly can't claim empirical data will prove what my pre-install research yielded. I've only been online for 90 days and every install is unique. The data that I'm referencing is a lower NOCT temp, % yield on low irradiance, and degradation rates. Most I found on spec sheets, field study pdfs, etc. The difference is only 2-4% across the board, but it tipped my thoughts in favor of buying SP.

In my case, I didn't get a slick salesman, actually quite the opposite with the rep i worked with (I went to SP direct). If we're talking about the materials/claims that SP makes, I can agree that it definitely dupes the layman into thinking that it is a far superior product than it actually is.

I definitely think that this community is steering people in the correct direction: The quality installer makes a great deal of difference. The product when talking about the larger manufacturers is less differentiated in terms of performance than any manufacture claims.

Anyhoo, I took a chance on SP and I hope that the premium I paid will prove worthy.

You guys are doing a great service on steering people towards multiple good quotes and logical installs. I personally thank you guys for that too. I guess my gripe is that it often seems that SP gets the short end of the stick when people do choose that manufacturer.

Understood.

Sometimes I sum up my opinions by saying that after being around R.E/solar for about 40 years, and in that time becoming/being one of it's biggest fans, and seeing what's happening, I'm of the opinion that if more folks knew some of what I think I might know, there would be a lot fewer arrays on roofs and those that did exist would be a lot smaller and a lot better thought out. But, opinions vary.

[leffjouie]

Awesome! Thanks for the tip about the "map" button. I live on the Fremont/Milpitas border as per my PVOutput profile. Comparing a few in my area, it seems my array is doing well. It is amazing to note the differences in South vs. Southwest direction. I wonder what my burn-in time/degradation is or if that has much impact when comparing to older systems.

I did a batch upload and intend to do so monthly. I'm very excited about my install lately, so perhaps more frequently in the immediate future. My install has included web monitoring (it's an addon module), so I simply downloaded the csv file and uploaded it to PV Output. I can do as granular as hourly.

[sensij]

I uploaded my results to LavaSunPower. Unfortunately, not many arrays in my zipcode that I can compare to. I certainly can't claim empirical data will prove what my pre-install research yielded. I've only been online for 90 days and every install is unique.

Very nice! If you click the "map" button, it graphically shows the areas near yours, sometimes an easier way to find them than by using filters on the outputs. I'll carve out some time soon to look more closely.

It looks like you are pushing daily data... what method are you using? SMA inverters are kind of difficult to link up with the outside world.

[Yaryman]

Care to share what city in the Bay Area you reside.
These are the results from 18 Solarworld 280's facing South in Brentwood. ( 5040 kW )
Most likely a little sunny here than closer to the coast.

http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=45408

[leffjouie]

Lol. I appreciate your humor guys - tripod I lol'd. Didn't know about PVOutput until yesterday. I uploaded my results to LavaSunPower. Unfortunately, not many arrays in my zipcode that I can compare to. I certainly can't claim empirical data will prove what my pre-install research yielded. I've only been online for 90 days and every install is unique. The data that I'm referencing is a lower NOCT temp, % yield on low irradiance, and degradation rates. Most I found on spec sheets, field study pdfs, etc. The difference is only 2-4% across the board, but it tipped my thoughts in favor of buying SP.

In my case, I didn't get a slick salesman, actually quite the opposite with the rep i worked with (I went to SP direct). If we're talking about the materials/claims that SP makes, I can agree that it definitely dupes the layman into thinking that it is a far superior product than it actually is.

I definitely think that this community is steering people in the correct direction: The quality installer makes a great deal of difference. The product when talking about the larger manufacturers is less differentiated in terms of performance than any manufacture claims.

Anyhoo, I took a chance on SP and I hope that the premium I paid will prove worthy.

You guys are doing a great service on steering people towards multiple good quotes and logical installs. I personally thank you guys for that too. I guess my gripe is that it often seems that SP gets the short end of the stick when people do choose that manufacturer.

[J.P.M.]

Do your wife and friends call you Tripod too?

Sometimes when I get excited about something. However, wife # 1 (still friends) used to bust my butt at parties 1X/awhile and tell a story about when we were first dating how she thought I might make a good rodeo cowboy (probably from OK as it turns out ?) because I could do anything for 8 seconds.

[Sunking]

Mark, I agree with your comments. I've found the most vocal voices in solarpaneltalk are not pro S.P. except for footprint.

That is because we are not biased and here to try to sell you something. Many of us are pros who have worked with SP and many manufactures. There is nothing special about them, and in many ways fall short in production and operation. We have nothing to loose or gain no matter what you do. We are just here to save you from yourself and slick salesman.If you already pulled the trigger, well then.....

[Sunking]

Yea, from your pic, I could see the resemblance in attitude and particularly waist down characteristics.

Do your wife and friends call you Tripod too?

[Yaryman]

Mark - I've got your back and if you want to chat offline, PM me. No, I don't work for SunPower.

Unless the PM system has been fixed or turned on, you can't PM somebody.

[sensij]

leffjouie... the easiest way to make your case that (high temps, low irradiance, longevity) are superior is to share your production data on a site like PVOutput.org where it can be compared to established models or similar non-sunpower systems in your area with similar orientation. Every time I've seen a sunpower system compared in this way, it fails to outperform, but maybe your system is different.

[leffjouie]

Mark, I agree with your comments. I've found the most vocal voices in solarpaneltalk are not pro S.P. except for footprint.

I went with SunPower and I have no regrets. I found a deal and paid a 10% premium vs. the best LG300 quote I could find.

I plan on being in my home for a very long time. The warranty, the company stability, the footprint, and the claimed production gains were worth the premium in my mind.

I did extensive research and what I found was benefits beyond just the name plate watts (which many base their claims of commoditizing solar). I was able to find good independent stats and spec sheets that showed the benefit in power produced at high temps, low irradiance, and longevity.

I'm sure some may call me a sucker for choosing S.P., but I've definitely spent waaaay too much time searching out the available data on the topic of LG vs. SP.

I'm not here to get into a pissing match, because I'm certainly outnumbered. In the end, I'm very happy with my decision and feel that it was worth it.

Mark - I've got your back and if you want to chat offline, PM me. No, I don't work for SunPower.

[J.P.M.]

I knew we were related. Our common family member is PT Barnum: "There is a sucker born every minute"

Yea, from your pic, I could see the resemblance in attitude and particularly waist down characteristics.

[Sunking]

Sunpower, while not the only one, seems to, IMO only, have raised the spreading of that hype to an art form. More opinion: That hype/sales pitch bordering on hard sell is one of the big reasons for their success, and, sort of putting my money where my mouth (or opinion) are, one reason why I own a bunch of their stock. Basically, I'm betting on the stupendous ignorance and gullibility of the general public to swallow the stuff that S.P. pukes out.

I knew we were related. Our common family member is PT Barnum: "There is a sucker born every minute"

[J.P.M.]

To the recent responses, I'd also say for those considering solar, comparing LG to SolarWorld to Sunpower, it is possible to hear "Sunpower is not worth it" many times, and therefore not pursue it, potentially not investigating the pros/cons fully enough. To me it's a much closer value proposition between LG Solar and Sunpower than some other opinions I've read here. One not obviously a better decision then the other......

For the example $.70/watt DC pricing difference I referred to, or about $2,500 after tax credit on an example 5.2 kW system --I feel it's a close call / strong arguments for both, that one solution isn't obviously better than the other even with a price difference. One thing LG and Sunpower have in common for example is financial strength, high quality mono silicon panels and large companies......But there are still some other differentiators between them I feel worth considering.

Someone deciding they'd want to use Sunpower instead of the LG/SolarWorld isn't necessarily unreasonable or misguided. I'd argue that an informed solar shopper could justify a $.70/watt DC price difference if after investigating they came to the conclusion(s) which they felt as legit......:

----that Sunpower can be argued as a larger, stronger, more globally diversified company in financial terms than many panel companies such as SolarWorld;
----Unique 25-yr warranty coverage for materials, labor and shipping on their panels -- can look good long term to any new home buyer or if homeowner is staying for a long time;
----that Sunpower's claims could hold merit that by using heavier duty materials, solid copper backing of cell there's less chance of cell interconnect break-down over time.
----It's just a cherry on the top if the panels do in fact degrade less over time and produce a little more over time than some other brands and use less space, with the items of company strength, technical experience, warranty coverage, likelihood of being around, and panel construction being larger factors in the decision.

Some I think could definitely decide that the $2,500 is worth it and be reasonable; just as someone could decide that $2,500 isn't worth enough extra value from Sunpower.
It could be all fluff and PR, but not necessarily.

Mark: Somewhat echoing/adding to Varyman's comment, you sound like someone who has his mind made up and is looking for validation of your opinion.

First off, no validation is needed. Your opinion is what it is and stands by itself.

A lot of, but by no means all, other opinion around here, most of it with no skin in the game, but a lot of experience in solar and other engineering of all types holds that Sunpower, while good stuff, is not, in many or most situations, a cost effective product choice for the required duty.

There is no hard answer for any situation, but for most applications, using Sunpower is like hiring a surgeon as a butcher. It'll sure work, but at what price ?

While some folks are concerned about the environment, most folks are also and primarily concerned about cost, or more specifically, the most cost effective ways to lower the cost of providing electricity to their home or business. To that end, I've found most folks are abysmally ignorant of how to estimate the most cost effective ways to reach that goal. So, they wind up buying into the solar hype from peddlers and the tree hugger mafia, and throwing money at a self inflicted high electric bill using the overall least cost effective method to reduce that bill - that is - solar PV - first, instead of last, if at all.

Sunpower, while not the only one, seems to, IMO only, have raised the spreading of that hype to an art form. More opinion: That hype/sales pitch bordering on hard sell is one of the big reasons for their success, and, sort of putting my money where my mouth (or opinion) are, one reason why I own a bunch of their stock. Basically, I'm betting on the stupendous ignorance and gullibility of the general public to swallow the stuff that S.P. pukes out. I'm doing so in the spirit of what someone once said about no one ever losing money underestimating the intelligence of the general public.

I think solar is a great way to provide energy. I'm one of its biggest fans. So much so that I changed careers and became an engineer many years ago, initially to be able to spot the B.S. I was getting from nitwit peddlers and tree huggers. Those types are with us always.

Everyone who tells you what you want to hear is not necessarily your friend. Those who tell you stuff you don't like are not necessarily your enemy.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Yaryman]

MarkH180, it sound like you want to buy the Sunpower panels. No problem, go ahead.

While some of the advice you get here may not be coated with the proper amount of sugar, it comes from people that know more about solar than you and I do.

If you want to pay an extra $2500 go ahead. You will be adding about a year to payback on the system. Your choice.

Will your system be string inverters, or micro inverters? Will you be able to monitor each panel?
I ask, because without individual panel monitoring, in 5 years you will NEVER be able to detect if one panel has gone bad.

I am just reading the room. You want the Sunpower panels and you want somebody to say it's OK. There, I said it. It's OK.