Questions about new system under production

[Markinphoenix]

First off let me say I apologize for my attitude in my earlier post. This whole thing was supposed to be so simple. It has proved to be the absolute opposite. When Judge Judy drops the gavel, the only thing that matters are the numbers stated in my lease. They say 10800 every year 420 years. The least number so I will save $30 a month. The salesman told me I would save over $100 a month. Oh well. The salesman just called me about 20 minutes ago. I'm surprised he had the gall to do it. He acted all happy and chipper to talk to me instead he sent me a big giant work up and how it was going to make it all better. I will have to go to college to understand what he sent and I guarantee you he did not put it together. Apparently the owner of the company handed it back to him and told him to make me go away. That is pretty much the bottom line. There are charts and graphs and numbers and formulas I don't even care. I got what I got if somehow my system starts making me 52 a day in the summertime, maybe it'll work. If it stays at 27 as my lease states, it won't work. But if somebody will just tell me in the summertime it'll be pushin 52, I have a chance for it to do what he told us. Again I'm fighting two different things, what we were told and what is on paper. The breakdown he presented is on a time of Use Plan which my power company says in my case makes no difference. We have gas everything. Are electric usage rarely varies at all during the daytime. So I'm done, Harmon Solar says I'm getting what I paid for I contend I got screwed. Thanks again to everyone for your input and if anybody asks where I got it, I'll tell him I got it in the shorts. Harmon sucks. Had I been presented all of this mumbo jumbo 6 months ago and was told I would only save $30 a month as my lease states, I would have stood up and escorted Mr Tom to the door, and been done with it. But he gets a nice fat commission check, his company got paid for the installation, and sunpower gets to collect money from me. And from what I can see, based on the numbers on paper in the lease, I will need to make sure I have a line of credit at the bank to cover my electric bills this summer. Banking and over production will not take me to where I need to be as we were told. Thanks for your help, I hope everybody has a nice Christmas.

[Ian S]

I feel your pain but let me hopefully make you feel a bit better. It's a shame you were led to believe that your system would cover all your electricity needs but, assuming you are with APS and have been switched to the Time Of Use plan, you may actually be at or near the sweet spot of cost effective production. Assuming you have gas heat, starting this month on APS, you will be able to bank a lot of On-Peak credits between now and May and use those to supplement your On-Peak usage over next summer. Remember, the actual cost of On-Peak is about 27 cents per kWh after taxes compared to about 7 cents for Off-Peak. The goal is to have enough banked to not have to buy ANY On-Peak electricity at all next year. That's the way it worked for me in 2013 and 2014 and I have a similar 2/3 production vs total usage as you do (12,500/19,000.) Highest bill I had in 2013-2014 was about $150. Unfortunately, this year, due to more cloudy weather and higher temps and 18 yo AC system, I had a big bill in September of about $240 but a big chunk of that was due to me running out of On-Peak credits and getting nailed for the 27 cents per kWh. In 2016, I expect to replace the AC unit so I should be able to eliminate ALL the On-Peak usage again.

If you had got a system that produced 100% of your usage annually, you would have found that you would still have significant bills in the summer that don't get offset by excess kWh generated in the cool months from September until trueup in early December. Rather, APS will pay you a token 3 cents a kWh for that excess. Note this is quite different from how the Cali utilities run their net metering.

[Markinphoenix]

Thank you Ian, you are the first one that I've talked . to in 6 months that has a different way to look at it than what I've been told. But I will add this, I have spoken to APS two different times about banking money. They said they do not bank money they bank kilowatt hours. I Bank if I overproduce kilowatt hours of electricity. Only in December do they settle up for the year. If somehow I have over produced versus what I've used, i' ll make a couple of dollars as they will pay me a certain amount of money per kilowatt hour of overproduction from my solar. You are the only person who has mentioned a difference between on peak and off peak credits or usage, but that does not follow anything that I have heard so far. This is another example of how difficult this whole project is for anyone to follow. At this point I am going to pursue this through the Arizona Corporation Commission, and I have lined up an independent consultant to run all the numbers. The numbers in my lease and the numbers from this morning and give me their opinion on what this system will do and compared to what we were told. At that point I will determine whether or not to file a formal complaint against the company for completely misrepresenting their product. The worksheet that I was presented this morning was never used 6 months ago. They used a very simple average taken from one complete year recently and originally it was taken from 3 years. Those numbers are the exact same numbers that sunpower and the power company and the solar Company all have used and come up with the exact same information every time. Now, this morning, 6 months after this whole thing started, they decide to bring in a completely different set of rules, a completely different presentation, and I refuse to even look at it hard myself. A quick glimpse proves to me it's beyond my comprehension to figure it out and also looking at the numbers they use for my cost of solar production, is not even close to what my lease says. My lease says I pay $104 a month, it was supposed to be in $96.35 but I won't cry over $8 a month, at least not yet. The worksheet today shows my lease payment to be $77 a month. All things considered I'm going to save $1,000 a year. That number itself is completely inaccurate. I give up with HARMAN Solar even being close to competent enough to give me accurate trustworthy information. The Corporation Commission and my lawyer will guide me the rest of the way. If an independent evaluation proves that it will work then I will walk away and be done with it. I will owe no one an apology as the only thing I have asked for since day one is proof that it will work. And even to this day that has not happened. An independent analysis will show another person's idea of what may or may not happen. This is like taking $100 to Las Vegas and wanting to know exactly how much you're going to leave with. Here is a hint,,,,,plan on losing it all.

As this progresses, I will post updates and let everyone know how it goes. After what they tried to pull today with this " worksheet" presentation, I have no confidence in their ability to even present this to me in an understandable method. Maybe you are right, maybe I'm right, maybe nobody's right, maybe it's just like Las Vegas, one big crap shoot. Some people win, some people lose.Once the smoke blows away and the mirrors are all gone, you get what you got.

[sensij]

The breakdown he presented is on a time of Use Plan which my power company says in my case makes no difference.

Time of use plans make a big difference, as Ian described. I think you should read and re-read his post. Your power company is not in the business of giving good advice, and it will be interesting to see what the ACC comes up with. Despite what you seem to expect, there is not necessarily an "understandable method" of presenting the information necessary to judge the cost-effectiveness of your lease, especially when you are only cautiously accepting the idea that your system will produce more energy in the summer than in the winter.

If only one message gets through, please consider this one: do not spend more money on solar until you've gone through a year with what you have and see how it works out. As J.P.M.'s quick math suggested, you might be pleasantly surprised when you sit down at the end of the year and really look at what your electricity has cost.

[UkiwiS]

In July my 5.85kW system produced 1000 kWhs. My December production is tracking at around 400 kWhs representing a drop of 60% from peak summertime production.

You WILL produce much more in the summer months.

[Markinphoenix]

But at least it adds to the look of my 63 for 5 year old house. Oh well, done battling for the night, just waiting for my wife to get home from work.

[Ian S]

Thank you Ian, you are the first one that I've talked . to in 6 months that has a different way to look at it than what I've been told. But I will add this, I have spoken to APS two different times about banking money. They said they do not bank money they bank kilowatt hours. I Bank if I overproduce kilowatt hours of electricity. Only in December do they settle up for the year. If somehow I have over produced versus what I've used, i' ll make a couple of dollars as they will pay me a certain amount of money per kilowatt hour of overproduction from my solar. You are the only person who has mentioned a difference between on peak and off peak credits or usage, but that does not follow anything that I have heard so far. This is another example of how difficult this whole project is for anyone to follow. At this point I am going to pursue this through the Arizona Corporation Commission, and I have lined up an independent consultant to run all the numbers. The numbers in my lease and the numbers from this morning and give me their opinion on what this system will do and compared to what we were told. At that point I will determine whether or not to file a formal complaint against the company for completely misrepresenting their product. The worksheet that I was presented this morning was never used 6 months ago. They used a very simple average taken from one complete year recently and originally it was taken from 3 years. Those numbers are the exact same numbers that sunpower and the power company and the solar Company all have used and come up with the exact same information every time. Now, this morning, 6 months after this whole thing started, they decide to bring in a completely different set of rules, a completely different presentation, and I refuse to even look at it hard myself. A quick glimpse proves to me it's beyond my comprehension to figure it out and also looking at the numbers they use for my cost of solar production, is not even close to what my lease says. My lease says I pay $104 a month, it was supposed to be in $96.35 but I won't cry over $8 a month, at least not yet. The worksheet today shows my lease payment to be $77 a month. All things considered I'm going to save $1,000 a year. That number itself is completely inaccurate. I give up with HARMAN Solar even being close to competent enough to give me accurate trustworthy information. The Corporation Commission and my lawyer will guide me the rest of the way. If an independent evaluation proves that it will work then I will walk away and be done with it. I will owe no one an apology as the only thing I have asked for since day one is proof that it will work. And even to this day that has not happened. An independent analysis will show another person's idea of what may or may not happen. This is like taking $100 to Las Vegas and wanting to know exactly how much you're going to leave with. Here is a hint,,,,,plan on losing it all.

As this progresses, I will post updates and let everyone know how it goes. After what they tried to pull today with this " worksheet" presentation, I have no confidence in their ability to even present this to me in an understandable method. Maybe you are right, maybe I'm right, maybe nobody's right, maybe it's just like Las Vegas, one big crap shoot. Some people win, some people lose.Once the smoke blows away and the mirrors are all gone, you get what you got.

Sorry if I was not clear, you do not bank "money" you bank kWh's and this month is when you start from zero with APS. Re On and Off Peak, with solar on the APS grid, essentially you have a choice between between a standard rate plan where your cost per kWh does not vary with time of day and a Time of Use plan where the kWh cost does vary with time of day. Basically you have an On-Peak period from noon until 7 PM on weekdays and the cost per kWh is about 4 times its cost at any other time during the period from May to October. During the winter there is less of a difference but if you have gas heat and electric AC, then the months from May to late September will dominate your electricity usage. The calculations are not rocket science but based on your monthly and intra-day usage over a year's period, it's possible to figure out whether the standard rate or the T.O.U. rate would be better for you. In general, for someone in the Phoenix area with gas heat and electric AC, you will do better on T.O.U. than the standard rate if your production is less than about 75% of your actual usage. Now, you say that your current production is 27 kWh/day. That's pretty much what you'd expect at this time of year for a system your size. Rest assured that it will get much larger in the months when the sun isn't so low and the days aren't so short. I'd be shocked if your system doesn't out-perfom what the guarantee states because those guarantees are always low-balled.

As for the discrepancy between what you were told the lease would cost and what they're charging you, could it be because you are not having them take the lease payment out of your account directly? In my case, I know there was an extra charge if you paid by check. FWIW, I doubt you'll get much satisfaction at the Corp. Comm. Several of the Commissioners are worried about their jobs. Still, they hate the rooftop solar companies so much they might just take up your cause! I forget which one was recently in the news but he was indignant that the rooftop solar companies had funded a campaign demanding he he hand over emails purportedly showing he's in the pocket of APS or some such. I would also complain to SunPower directly as it is almost certainly their entity that is the lessor not Harmon. The BBB may also be worth a shot.

[Markinphoenix]

Thank you Ian, your explanation is very clear and now it makes more sense. I wish you had been my salesman!LoL
So you're saying that right now 27 kilowatts per day sounds about right. But as the summer months approach that will go up? I understand in my system theoretically could produce 52 kilowatt hours per day but that would be unexpected due to length of day and Sun angle. But if it produces more than 27, that is a plus.
I contacted sunpower early on, they contacted Harmon, they discussed it somehow I guess, and sunpower called me back and said I got what I signed for. Even though they hold all the cards over me and Harmon. At this point I have exhausted all avenues and are basically forced to either shut up and go away or go to the Corporation Commission. If nothing else I would hope that the salesman would learn how to present their system better and not mislead misrepresent or lie to people to make a sale. Apparently you think my system will begin climbing in production as Sun angle and length of day is gets better. Is this correct? Just taking a guess how high do you think it might go 30, 35, 40, 50? The only problem with waiting a year is the Corporation Commission limits complaints to 90 days. What a learning experience in something that has no definite explanations expectations or outcomes. It appears that the only way a solar company can make a sale , Is to blow smoke up the customer's pants.

As far as the billing goes, direct withdrawal from our checking account, which we signed up for work, was supposed to be $96 a month. Pay by check is 104. They are charging us 104. The papers this morning say they're charging me 77. That is not even close. But they also say that they did not receive the routing number or account number when I signed online. Maybe that will be my ace in the hole to get them to listen to me one more time. If they cannot take money from my account and if I decide not to send them a check, and may have a chance to talk to him one more time. Thanks again Mark

[cebury]

If you post up all those 'charts and graphs' Harmon gave you today, I'm willing to bet everything Ian has explained is represented in there. We can help you figure it out if you like, but it does take study on your part.

[Markinphoenix]

Thank you Cebury, I will try and scan it and upload it and you can take a look at it. I'm sure it will help me understand how it should have been presented 6 months ago. But since they are holding me hammer and nail to the wording in the contract and the lease, it is really of no value to me at this moment as I try and make them accountable for the misrepresentation. This chart was created, most likely this morning. It was never used to figure, represent, verify or justify anything 6 months ago. But I'll see what I can do. Mark

[Ian S]

Thank you Ian, your explanation is very clear and now it makes more sense. I wish you had been my salesman!LoL
So you're saying that right now 27 kilowatts per day sounds about right. But as the summer months approach that will go up? I understand in my system theoretically could produce 52 kilowatt hours per day but that would be unexpected due to length of day and Sun angle. But if it produces more than 27, that is a plus.
I contacted sunpower early on, they contacted Harmon, they discussed it somehow I guess, and sunpower called me back and said I got what I signed for. Even though they hold all the cards over me and Harmon. At this point I have exhausted all avenues and are basically forced to either shut up and go away or go to the Corporation Commission. If nothing else I would hope that the salesman would learn how to present their system better and not mislead misrepresent or lie to people to make a sale. Apparently you think my system will begin climbing in production as Sun angle and length of day is gets better. Is this correct? Just taking a guess how high do you think it might go 30, 35, 40, 50? The only problem with waiting a year is the Corporation Commission limits complaints to 90 days. What a learning experience in something that has no definite explanations expectations or outcomes. It appears that the only way a solar company can make a sale , Is to blow smoke up the customer's pants.

As far as the billing goes, direct withdrawal from our checking account, which we signed up for work, was supposed to be $96 a month. Pay by check is 104. They are charging us 104. The papers this morning say they're charging me 77. That is not even close. But they also say that they did not receive the routing number or account number when I signed online. Maybe that will be my ace in the hole to get them to listen to me one more time. If they cannot take money from my account and if I decide not to send them a check, and may have a chance to talk to him one more time. Thanks again Mark

Yes, definitely your production will go up big time probably peaking sometime in May but staying high through the summer months. If you're getting 27 kWh now, I'd guess you might get a peak of around 43-46 kWh at some point. You're dealing with a number of interacting parameters but suffice to say, you'll get the highest power when the sun is directly overhead of your panels so that the suns rays hit the panel at a 90 degree angle. Near the winter solstice, is the worst time of the year for production. PVWatts should give you a good idea of the production to expect for each of the 12 months of the year. I've attached a graph of my numbers for a couple of years/

You should definitely clear up the issue with the direct withdrawal - $8/mo adds up over 20 years. I would also strongly advise not stopping payment on your lease: you could incur costly penalties for doing so. Harmon appears to be an accredited business with the BBB and has a good rating so a complaint filed there might get the quickest action. Frankly, I think you fell for some high pressure sales tactics without understanding how solar works and what to expect. And although the salesman can make them look like the greatest thing since sliced bread, monthly solar leases are rarely if ever the best way to go solar. But that's water under the bridge; you have the lease now and will have to make the best of it.

We have some friends that just told us they are going solar and I fear they are going the lease route too. I wish they had asked for some guidance but they didn't. I'll find out more soon.

[Markinphoenix]

Thanks again Ian, you have become the calming vioce in this mess. LoL ( but true)
I received 2 more emails from the owner of HS and he appears to genuienly want to help. He too ran the numbers on the PV watts calculator and also feels it may hopefully kinda sorta work, at least we hope so.
At this point I'm about ready to abondon the original BS presentation and just try to figure, the best it can be figured, if its going to get close to breaking even OVER 12 MONTHS,. The projected savings are way way short now but right now, if I can just get it over and working the best it can, I'll call it over and go get drunk!

After measuring, I actually have room for 4 more panels on my south roof, next to my 18. I'd love to have that for "just in case". Time will tell on that too.

I'm also now trying to get them to ammend the lease/contract back to the $96.35 a month for auto pay. SP screwed that one up and my lease bears it out.

I'll try to get the " workup sheet" uploaded soon but it seems to follow your projections quite closely.

Thanks for being a breath of fresh air here! And Merry Christmas to everyone here also.
Mark

[Markinphoenix]

Well I'm back after a while waiting. Wasn't planning on being gone this long but its just kinda how it worked out. I had an independent contractor who was going to look at my system and he did not ever follow through. I have contacted the owner of Harmon Solar again just this week and we are going to sit down face to face and just try and talk things out. I was lied to mislead whatever you wanna call it in the beginning but that's over with and I have to try and figure out what's going to happen this summer. Being pushed into early retirement and full disability my income is slashed severely and I cannot handle four and $500 electric bills during the summer time. I'm going to meet with the owner after March bill comes through so he can try and explain time of use and all the mumbo jumbo crap that I see on my bill. It makes no sense to me and I really don't care if it makes sense to me. I don't care how nuclear energy works I just want to know that when I flip a switch my lights come on. In the beginning this was presented drop dead simple and everything changed.

So anyway I'm getting electric bills from APS that are showing that I am paying for electricity over and above the $27 for all of the fees and crap and junk that they charge me every month. I'm getting electric bills 447 + $50 which in my mind tells me that its not supplying enough to cover even simple winter usage let alone bank for the summer yet the owner of the company quotes tons and tons of bank electricity so it it makes no sense to me if I'm banking it why isn't paying for the next month overage? So I'm sitting here looking at a beautiful system that in my opinion was a complete waste of time and money because the estimated savings are about 25% of what they were first told so we basically just went away about 9 grand on home repairs that we really didn't need to do this soon to put up a system that is not what we were sold. If any of you are interested I can try and scan and post copies of my bill you can look at it it makes no sense to me but then again a lot of people would look at a Quadrajet carburetor and be totally lost but to me its just a very simple little piece of machinery I've rebuilt hundreds. I have Neighbor with Vivint solar that are still waiting to be hooked up and they were they were started long before me. And I would also like to start a second thread about SolarCity I speak a lot to a salesman at Home Depot and he is sharing a lot of really interesting information with me that I would like to run by some of the guys here so I will start that separate from this one. Time to go cook the ribs on the barbecue, thanks for all your help and I'll let you know how it goes month after month after month. I just hope it doesn't get to be in December and they tell me I'm sorry, it's been a year. In my opinion sunpower is a real undesirable residential provider of solar systems. Their customer service is the absolute worst I've ever encountered in my life. But I signed a 20 year note I got screwed all I can do is just try and make it is bearable as I can.

[Markinphoenix]

[Logan005]

so funny to see house with solar panels and old incandescent Holiday lights.