Thinking of going partially solar.

[CruisnGrrl]

Looking at my electric bill electricity ends up costing me $3k a year and makes me want to disconnect from the system however the problem is in the coldest months my bill is the highest.. in summer time we're looking at 10-12kwh a day but in january and february we're looking at 20-30kwh a day. When we need it most the sun is the weakest. I think the electric water heater, electric dryer, electric stove and the odd electric heater (which really needs to be disconnected) are what are killing us the most. However I was thinking some systems like lights (which are currently all CFL and will be replaced with LED as they fail) and the well pump could be put on solar. Possibly the fridge and freezer as well which would protect from power outages. The tricky part is the well pump is 240V (8amps), it's a grundfos sq, and the manual indicates a minimum of 1900 watt generator and optimum would be 2500watt generator, I'm guessing the same would be for an inverter. The wiring to the pump is 3 wires, 2 of them are hot and the third is a ground. When I was looking at inverters I saw mention of split phase where 1 leg could be split off for 110 volt and the inverters i was able to find that are 240v were not split phase. I'm not sure if we need split phase for the well pump or if we would need to run 2 inverters, one 240 for the well pump and one 110 for the lighting/other appliances.

[inetdog]

If you read some more in the Forum you will find that for almost all people in the US and for most people elsewhere it makes much more sense financially to install a grid tied inverter with Net Metering or some sort of solar incentives from the power company.
If you try to build a system that charges batteries from PV and then uses those batteries to drive an inverter, your amortized cost per kWh is likely to be over $1.00. Compare that to the unpleasant amount you currently pay POCO (from $.07 in Texas to perhaps $.50 in Hawaii) and tell me if you still want to go "off grid" with any of your loads.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

You would be better off to go with a grid tied system than to disconnect. Battery costs alone will be more than the grid power.

But first you should look into conservation methods to reduce your power requirements. Any way you can reduce you needs means you don't have to buy that power or produce it yourself.

WWW

[J.P.M.]

OP: Do you have access to natural gas ? If so, it is usually a much less expensive energy source than electricity. Just sayin'.

[lkruper]

You would be better off to go with a grid tied system than to disconnect. Battery costs alone will be more than the grid power.

But first you should look into conservation methods to reduce your power requirements. Any way you can reduce you needs means you don't have to buy that power or produce it yourself.

WWW

I recently was surprised that the Costco batteries ($84 for 6v 207AH - 1220 cycles @ 50%) come out to 11.09 cents / kWh for the batteries. With TOU pricing, I would get baselines of 13 kWh in the Summer and 25 kWh in the winter of 1 cent / kWh for 10 hours to charge the batteries. (Try to compete with that even with solar!) At 14.5 for my baseline rate without TOU I can do a bit better than break even for a small load, so long as I do not consider the risk of batteries or my labor. Even so, it's not enough incentive for me to jump in just yet.

[lkruper]

OP: Do you have access to natural gas ? If so, it is usually a much less expensive energy source than electricity. Just sayin'.

Or wood.

[J.P.M.]

Or wood.

The wood you cut/split yourself warms you at least twice, but probably not real good for the environment or people's backs as a large scale basis - not that most of us couldn't use the exercise.

[CruisnGrrl]

House is heated with heating oil, natural gas doesn't run down this street and likely never will in my lifetime otherwise we would be switching in a heartbeat. when this furnace goes the plan is to switch to propane which is usually cheaper than heating oil (which goes for the same price as diesel as they are interchangeable if needed) however last winter propane spiked to be the same cost as heating oil. When that happens the water heater will also likely be switched to propane. Time of use also hurts us. We've cut down electricity consumption quite a bit, all the incandescent bulbs have been swapped out for CFL lights, the dishwasher, fridge and freezer are decent on energy star ratings. rather than use a desktop we use notebooks that take less electricity and we have a wood stove to supplement the heat (it's not big enough to handle the whole house). A thermoswitch has been added to make it so the blower on the woodstove only turns on when the stove is hot and turns off when the stove is cold. Like I said in my first post going off grid isn't feasible (i think i calculated 88 solar panels to handle the needs in january due to the lack of light) but putting certain systems on their own grid might be feasible, going to a battery bank to avoid the higher costs of TOU may not pay for itself as we've adjusted when we do laundry and dishes.

Here's a chart of sunlight, it's probably off by a little bit because of distance to the weather station. but it gives a good idea of what we're dealing with

[droppinloads]

The wood you cut/split yourself warms you at least twice, but probably not real good for the environment or people's backs as a large scale basis - not that most of us couldn't use the exercise.

I find it to be warming 3 times. Cutting, Stacking, Burning...

[J.P.M.]

OP:

As you will find from reading posts on this forum, general consensus is that a grid tie system will be much more cost effective than a system using batteries, and probably a lot less maint. as well. If your elec. utility has some form of net metering available, that will perhaps be your best route if you intend to use solar PV as an energy source. Also, and as you probably already know, depending on the cost of alternate energy sources, eliminating as much electricity use as possible is almost always a money saver - as in changing out the electric water heating to some other source.

BTW: If you are on the north shore of Lake Ontario or relatively close to it, you do a bit better in the winter sunshine dept. than Rochester. Try PVWatts using Trenton, Kingston, or Toronto as alternates for comparison.

[CruisnGrrl]

OP:

As you will find from reading posts on this forum, general consensus is that a grid tie system will be much more cost effective than a system using batteries, and probably a lot less maint. as well. If your elec. utility has some form of net metering available, that will perhaps be your best route if you intend to use solar PV as an energy source. Also, and as you probably already know, depending on the cost of alternate energy sources, eliminating as much electricity use as possible is almost always a money saver - as in changing out the electric water heating to some other source.

BTW: If you are on the north shore of Lake Ontario or relatively close to it, you do a bit better in the winter sunshine dept. than Rochester. Try PVWatts using Trenton, Kingston, or Toronto as alternates for comparison.

Wow, thanks for the tip, I see Trenton has 50% more light in December. Changing some of the appliances that chew up electricity is the plan, have also made a few changes to the basement to help keep the heat in. Working on a popcan furnace. Where I think it would help the most is the basement however the basement is a dug basement and very damp, I've been warned that heating that air up could cause an issue with mould.

If we could bring down consumption to 15kwh/d in the winter off grid might be feasible. I looked into selling solar back to the electric company and was told the grid in my area was saturated. I've also thought about having those small wind turbines to supplement the solar.

[inetdog]

I've also thought about having those small wind turbines to supplement the solar.

Forget that idea completely!

Small wind turbines are rarely effective, and when they are they need to be in an area clear of obstacles like trees or buildings that cause air turbulence and be mounted on 40-60 foot tall guyed towers.
It is not likely that you will be able to meet those installation requirements.
It is also said that if you do not have to tie down your hat every time you go outside you do not have enough wind to make a turbine pay.

The killer fact of physics is that the output of a wind turbine is proportional to the cube of the wind speed. So if the turbine is rated 100W at 25mph, it will produce 12.5 watts at 12.5mph and only 1 watt at 6mph.

There are places where small wind makes sense. Especially for an off-gridder with severe winter weather that limits PV. But they need to be capable of installing and maintaining a 1000W turbine on a 60' tower.
Also makes sense on some sailboats.

[CruisnGrrl]

So our electric bill is supposed to go up 30-40% in the next couple years, (it's already doubled the past couple years). If we can get our usage down to under 10kw a day I think going off grid will be feasible. Trimming down 1/3 from average use is going to be tricky, I'm not sure what more can be cut.

[lkruper]

So our electric bill is supposed to go up 30-40% in the next couple years, (it's already doubled the past couple years). If we can get our usage down to under 10kw a day I think going off grid will be feasible. Trimming down 1/3 from average use is going to be tricky, I'm not sure what more can be cut.

If you get down to an average of 10kw / day for the year, and your cost to produce your own electricity is about $1 per kW, that is $3600 per year. In your first post you said you were currently paying about $3000 per year using much more electricity.

And then there is your labor to maintain and fix the equipment on top of that.

[CruisnGrrl]

If you get down to an average of 10kw / day for the year, and your cost to produce your own electricity is about $1 per kW, that is $3600 per year. In your first post you said you were currently paying about $3000 per year using much more electricity.

And then there is your labor to maintain and fix the equipment on top of that.

Besides cleaning snow off in winter and dust off in other seasons what typically is the maintenance. Around here I see many solar "farms", i don't know how many are off grid, feeding the grid or just using the grid when there is no sun.

Here's the electricity rates, and for every dollar of electricity used there's another dollar for delivery fees (rates just went up 15% today, and with the government planning to privatize the electric company rates are expected to go up a lot more in the near future) plus taxes and various other fees on top of that.