Thinking of going partially solar.

[lkruper]

Besides cleaning snow off in winter and dust off in other seasons what typically is the maintenance. Around here I see many solar "farms", i don't know how many are off grid, feeding the grid or just using the grid when there is no sun.

Here's the electricity rates, and for every dollar of electricity used there's another dollar for delivery fees (rates just went up 15% today, and with the government planning to privatize the electric company rates are expected to go up a lot more in the near future) plus taxes and various other fees on top of that.

I cannot tell what your rates are in $/kWh from those graphs. As for maintenance, with battery systems you have to measure specific gravity to monitor the charge, add water and equalize as necessary.

[CruisnGrrl]

I cannot tell what your rates are in $/kWh from those graphs. As for maintenance, with battery systems you have to measure specific gravity to monitor the charge, add water and equalize as necessary.

woops looks like they used two images for pricing



I thought most batteries were a sealed maintenance free type, those have been my experience with cars and motorcycles.

[lkruper]

woops looks like they used two images for pricing



I thought most batteries were a sealed maintenance free type, those have been my experience with cars and motorcycles.

Those prices look pretty cheap to me, based on what I am paying. My analysis of the cost of energy from lead acid batteries shows nothing as inexpensive as your lowest tier. If you can get a Trojan T105-RE for about $125 the cost in cents / kWh is 11.6. A sealed battery is more expensive and gives less cycles. A Lifeline 8d at $640 comes to a whopping 42 cents / kWh at 50% DOD.

However, if you add the cost of your solar panels, charge controller, etc. it raises it even higher. Even if you prorate your panels for 25 years, and your electronics for 10 years, it adds a couple more cents / kWh. So your middle tier might be at best what your cost / kWh could be for a very small system. If you are trying to power your entire house, you will need to ramp up your battery bank with more expensive higher capacity batteries which are probably going to be 2v batteries in series.

Trojans Industrial (see Sunking's posts on this) would probably be your best choice but they won't get you below your bottom tier or middle tier either. Even your top tier of 17.5 cents / kWH looks really good compared to my 11, 30 and 46 cents / kWh in Southern California.

As for your question regarding batteries, for a stationary residence and someone who is involved in their energy production, flooded lead acid batteries will cost much less and last much longer.

[Roland Saul]

If the discussion is about Ontario electricity rates, those graphics only tell half the story. They show only the energy charge. In Ontario, your bill also includes Delivery Charge, Debt Retirement charge, infrastructure charge, and a rental fee for the meter itself which in my disputed case was about $50 a month. Ontario has the highest electricity prices in North America I believe.. If you take a normal bill of $200 per month for a single home and devote that amount to a solar system you will find that the expenses for purchasing and maintaining a solar system are being offset greatly.Still costs you more to go off grid than to pay for pole power, but the difference is shrinking as the cost of poco power goes up and up.

[lkruper]

If the discussion is about Ontario electricity rates, those graphics only tell half the story. They show only the energy charge. In Ontario, your bill also includes Delivery Charge, Debt Retirement charge, infrastructure charge, and a rental fee for the meter itself which in my disputed case was about $50 a month. Ontario has the highest electricity prices in North America I believe.. If you take a normal bill of $200 per month for a single home and devote that amount to a solar system you will find that the expenses for purchasing and maintaining a solar system are being offset greatly.Still costs you more to go off grid than to pay for pole power, but the difference is shrinking as the cost of poco power goes up and up.

I also pay other fees on top of the actual kWh rate. But solar does nothing to defray the cost of those fees, does it? The OP wants to put in a backup system with batteries to produce electricity, but I don't think there is a plan to disconnect from the grid completely, unless I am miss-understood.

[Sunking]

Besides cleaning snow off in winter

If you are in an area where it snows just doubled your price in panel cost, and 4 times the battery cost. I hope you are filthy rich and like to burn $20 bills as a source of heat just to show off how much money you have to burn.

[CruisnGrrl]

I also pay other fees on top of the actual kWh rate. But solar does nothing to defray the cost of those fees, does it? The OP wants to put in a backup system with batteries to produce electricity, but I don't think there is a plan to disconnect from the grid completely, unless I am miss-understood.

I wouldn't say back up system, more like certain circuits would be powered by solar and certain circuits fed by the grid (until alternatives are found). There are a number of solar farms in the area and there are a few people that have disconnected from the grid entirely in the area, so it has to be feasable at some level or people wouldn't be doing it.

I looked into providing power to the grid (it would pay more than the cost of electricity that we use), that ship has sailed and not available for 2 reasons - 1) the grid in this area is full and until it's upgraded to handle more electricity we can't get on that boat. 2) Ontario hydro no longer wishes to pay more than what they collect from consumers for electricity, which makes economical sense.

The most expensive power is from 7am-7pm which happens to coinside with the sun shining. So I'd rather actually look at the costs, options and requirements to get an idea of what's actually involved, saying solar's too expensive, stick it up your **** and shutting down any discussion seems to be counter productive.

[lkruper]

I wouldn't say back up system, more like certain circuits would be powered by solar and certain circuits fed by the grid (until alternatives are found). There are a number of solar farms in the area and there are a few people that have disconnected from the grid entirely in the area, so it has to be feasable at some level or people wouldn't be doing it.

I looked into providing power to the grid (it would pay more than the cost of electricity that we use), that ship has sailed and not available for 2 reasons - 1) the grid in this area is full and until it's upgraded to handle more electricity we can't get on that boat. 2) Ontario hydro no longer wishes to pay more than what they collect from consumers for electricity, which makes economical sense.

The most expensive power is from 7am-7pm which happens to coinside with the sun shining. So I'd rather actually look at the costs, options and requirements to get an idea of what's actually involved, saying solar's too expensive, stick it up your **** and shutting down any discussion seems to be counter productive.

The first thing you need to do is to define what loads you want to run and for how long. What devices do you want to run with solar, what are the watts they consume and how long per day do they run. Do you need these loads to operate every day without fail? Or would you be willing to switch back to grid for them if the sun does not shine for days at a time?

Second, I also would like to understand your objective. Is it to save money? To save money now, or to start solar because you feel the costs are going through the roof and eventually you think it will save money? (Which is a paraphrase of what you said) If this is the case, then what energy cost are you shooting for? In other words, if you think costs are going to rise to $1 per kWh, are you planning to design your system to beat that in terms of operating costs?

To what extent do you want to be involved in maintain the system? And how much risk are you willing to take? If you purchased 10k worth of batteries and they went belly up, would you consider that a good learning experience or would it devastate you?

Finally, what is your budget right now to get started?

[SunEagle]

I wouldn't say back up system, more like certain circuits would be powered by solar and certain circuits fed by the grid (until alternatives are found). There are a number of solar farms in the area and there are a few people that have disconnected from the grid entirely in the area, so it has to be feasable at some level or people wouldn't be doing it.

I looked into providing power to the grid (it would pay more than the cost of electricity that we use), that ship has sailed and not available for 2 reasons - 1) the grid in this area is full and until it's upgraded to handle more electricity we can't get on that boat. 2) Ontario hydro no longer wishes to pay more than what they collect from consumers for electricity, which makes economical sense.

The most expensive power is from 7am-7pm which happens to coinside with the sun shining. So I'd rather actually look at the costs, options and requirements to get an idea of what's actually involved, saying solar's too expensive, stick it up your **** and shutting down any discussion seems to be counter productive.

There are a number of Solar Panel Talk forum members that have gone completely off grid. But most will tell you it was a choice which involved a major change in lifestyle as compared to living on the grid and the major motivation for them was not to save money.

So to be blunt when someone here trys to explain that going off grid will cost much more than staying on the grid they aren't trying to shut down a discussion they are trying to alert you to the potential of spending a lot of more money than you may have intended to. The choice is your. We are here to help you understand the costs, options and requirements before you spend anything.

[CruisnGrrl]

The first thing you need to do is to define what loads you want to run and for how long. What devices do you want to run with solar, what are the watts they consume and how long per day do they run. Do you need these loads to operate every day without fail? Or would you be willing to switch back to grid for them if the sun does not shine for days at a time?

Second, I also would like to understand your objective. Is it to save money? To save money now, or to start solar because you feel the costs are going through the roof and eventually you think it will save money? (Which is a paraphrase of what you said) If this is the case, then what energy cost are you shooting for? In other words, if you think costs are going to rise to $1 per kWh, are you planning to design your system to beat that in terms of operating costs?

To what extent do you want to be involved in maintain the system? And how much risk are you willing to take? If you purchased 10k worth of batteries and they went belly up, would you consider that a good learning experience or would it devastate you?

Finally, what is your budget right now to get started?

There are a number of objectives. I would like to not have to depend on the reliability of the grid. I know that can be achieved with a generator for short periods of time. Being able to use items when it's convenient and not when it's cheapest, which i could also get around with something like tesla's battery bank (though i would probably use a less expensive lead acid solution). Saving money because costs are going through the roof, prices just went up again on november 1st and they're expected to go up again when daylight savings time starts again, plus the government just started selling off parts of the electric utility and they will be dividend producing stocks which means that the utility will have to become a for profit corporation. After delivery, fees and taxes we're currently looking at an actual price of $0.20 a kilowatt during the cheap time and double during the peak.

There are a number of Solar Panel Talk forum members that have gone completely off grid. But most will tell you it was a choice which involved a major change in lifestyle as compared to living on the grid and the major motivation for them was not to save money.

So to be blunt when someone here trys to explain that going off grid will cost much more than staying on the grid they aren't trying to shut down a discussion they are trying to alert you to the potential of spending a lot of more money than you may have intended to. The choice is your. We are here to help you understand the costs, options and requirements before you spend anything.

That's what I'm trying to get an idea of, costs of the various components of what I need... Most of the information I've found has been about hooking into the microfit program which unfortunately doesn't work for me.

I know I'll need solar panels, a charge controller, battery bank (I heard some one in the area is using a fork lift power cell for their bank), an inverter (the only prices I've found is for chinese sourced stuff which I have little faith in). I don't know where to source these items from as most suppliers that come up are for the microfit program (and i suspect they're just reselling someone else's package).

[SunEagle]

There are a number of objectives. I would like to not have to depend on the reliability of the grid. I know that can be achieved with a generator for short periods of time. Being able to use items when it's convenient and not when it's cheapest, which i could also get around with something like tesla's battery bank (though i would probably use a less expensive lead acid solution). Saving money because costs are going through the roof, prices just went up again on november 1st and they're expected to go up again when daylight savings time starts again, plus the government just started selling off parts of the electric utility and they will be dividend producing stocks which means that the utility will have to become a for profit corporation. After delivery, fees and taxes we're currently looking at an actual price of $0.20 a kilowatt during the cheap time and double during the peak.



That's what I'm trying to get an idea of, costs of the various components of what I need... Most of the information I've found has been about hooking into the microfit program which unfortunately doesn't work for me.

I know I'll need solar panels, a charge controller, battery bank (I heard some one in the area is using a fork lift power cell for their bank), an inverter (the only prices I've found is for chinese sourced stuff which I have little faith in). I don't know where to source these items from as most suppliers that come up are for the microfit program (and i suspect they're just reselling someone else's package).

From what I have read here on the Forum, most off grid members have built their system picking and chosing the hardware instead of getting a "kit". That way they can get the best or most affordable component instead of being locked in to what the "kit" offers. I believe they can find better prices on the panels as well as pick a charge controller and battery system that meets their needs. You also need to make a decision on the size and type of inverter you will be using.

There has been an increase of people looking at the micro-inverter systems but how they work for an off grid application is IMO still questionable.

[CruisnGrrl]

From what I have read here on the Forum, most off grid members have built their system picking and chosing the hardware instead of getting a "kit". That way they can get the best or most affordable component instead of being locked in to what the "kit" offers. I believe they can find better prices on the panels as well as pick a charge controller and battery system that meets their needs. You also need to make a decision on the size and type of inverter you will be using.

There has been an increase of people looking at the micro-inverter systems but how they work for an off grid application is IMO still questionable.

I figured a one size fits all kit probably wouldn't be to my liking. I've also been wondering how much power would be wasted going with multiple inverters vs one big one. I figure if we have one big inverter and it goes we lose power for everything, I haven't seen the large inverters at the local hardware/auto supply stores so I've no idea how long a replacement would take. Having 2 inverters with the essential stuff on one circuit would mean that our essentials (fridge, furnace, freezer, water pump) still have power. Fridge and freezer use 300 and 600 amps respectively, I have been trying to figure out how much the furnace actually uses as there are multiple numbers on it and i know the well pump wants 2600 (at 230VAC) available for start up even though it uses under 2000. Though unlikely it is possible that all 4 of those appliances could kick in all at the same time.

[zaphod]

Most of the information I've found has been about hooking into the microfit program which unfortunately doesn't work for me.

Why doesn't the MicroFIT system work for you? It is a huge subsidy by the Ontario government so you should take advantage of it.

With MicroFIT you sell power back to the grid at $0.384 (going down to $0.294 for 2016 installs) and that price is guaranteed by the Ontario government for 20 years. Since the most you currently pay in Ontario is $0.20 or so it makes no sense to use the power yourself. I am betting that most folks here would LOVE to get a deal like that. I installed 10kW of panels this past summer to take advantage of it. I paid $32k for panels and I should earn revenue of about $4.6k/year. The IRR is around 13% ignoring taxes.

In Ontario the price is not $0.20 in the cheap time and double that in the expensive time. Here in Toronto off-peak is $0.083 and peak is $0.175. Then you have to add in delivery charge, distribution charge, debt retirement, etc, etc. But in terms of variable pricing the off-peak works out to around $0.15 and the peak is about $0.22.

I have looked at the Tesla battery but the economics just don't work when the difference between peak and off peak is $0.09 if you want to arb this difference.

Why not stay on the grid and do a 10kW MicroFIT install? Are you saying that your local utility (which I am assuming is Hydro One) will not allow MicroFIT installs because their distribution lines are at capacity? You say that Ontario Hydro no longer wants to pay more than they collect from electricity - will that's not true entirely true and it isn't an apples and oranges comparison since they pay more for "clean" power. First off, Ontario Hydro hasn't existed for many years. You likely mean Hydro One and they are primarily owned by the Ontario Government, even after their recent IPO of 10% of the company. The MicroFIT program was set up and maintained by the Ontario government. It is true that this may be ending and moving to net metering, but until then you should try to get on it. I think you still get the 2015 pricing if you apply before the end of the year.

[zaphod]

@CruisnGrrl - Can you clarify why you want to get off the grid? You talk about reliability - how often does your power go off for more than a few minutes?

Is it for environmental reasons? One thing to keep in mind is that Ontario electricity doesn't emit a lot of GHGs. You can see that at this website: http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html. Right now 63% of power is from Nuclear, 21% from hydro, 21% from wind and 5% from gas. So only the gas is emitting CO2. (Note that solar isn't shown as it is not usually centrally generated)

It is unlikely that you will be saving money since the capital costs of going off the grid are currently much more expensive to get anywhere near the reliability of being on the grid. Sure electricity may be going up in the future but you never know - the marginal cost for producing more power is currently NatGas and it is cheap. Sure some of the other costs may be going up but that is because we have had SO much government intervention in the electricity markets in Ontario for 100+ years.

And what part of Ontario do you live in?

[CruisnGrrl]

Why doesn't the MicroFIT system work for you? It is a huge subsidy by the Ontario government so you should take advantage of it.

With MicroFIT you sell power back to the grid at $0.384 (going down to $0.294 for 2016 installs) and that price is guaranteed by the Ontario government for 20 years. Since the most you currently pay in Ontario is $0.20 or so it makes no sense to use the power yourself. I am betting that most folks here would LOVE to get a deal like that. I installed 10kW of panels this past summer to take advantage of it. I paid $32k for panels and I should earn revenue of about $4.6k/year. The IRR is around 13% ignoring taxes.

In Ontario the price is not $0.20 in the cheap time and double that in the expensive time. Here in Toronto off-peak is $0.083 and peak is $0.175. Then you have to add in delivery charge, distribution charge, debt retirement, etc, etc. But in terms of variable pricing the off-peak works out to around $0.15 and the peak is about $0.22.

I have looked at the Tesla battery but the economics just don't work when the difference between peak and off peak is $0.09 if you want to arb this difference.

Why not stay on the grid and do a 10kW MicroFIT install? Are you saying that your local utility (which I am assuming is Hydro One) will not allow MicroFIT installs because their distribution lines are at capacity? You say that Ontario Hydro no longer wants to pay more than they collect from electricity - will that's not true entirely true and it isn't an apples and oranges comparison since they pay more for "clean" power. First off, Ontario Hydro hasn't existed for many years. You likely mean Hydro One and they are primarily owned by the Ontario Government, even after their recent IPO of 10% of the company. The MicroFIT program was set up and maintained by the Ontario government. It is true that this may be ending and moving to net metering, but until then you should try to get on it. I think you still get the 2015 pricing if you apply before the end of the year.

Microfit doesn't work because the grid is at capacity in my area. hydro one is not accepting new providers in my area, there are people in my area with solar systems that they purchased and can't hook up to the grid because it's at capacity now.
Because we're in a rural area delivery charges are higher than what you would pay in high density areas, so it effectively doubles the rate we pay. You get cheaper rates in toronto because of the density. Like I said earlier, the telsa battery itself isn't economically feasible, using a lower cost technology like lead acid instead of lithium ion would be more feasible, lithium ion would be for people who don't have the space..

@CruisnGrrl - Can you clarify why you want to get off the grid? You talk about reliability - how often does your power go off for more than a few minutes?

Is it for environmental reasons? One thing to keep in mind is that Ontario electricity doesn't emit a lot of GHGs. You can see that at this website: http://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html. Right now 63% of power is from Nuclear, 21% from hydro, 21% from wind and 5% from gas. So only the gas is emitting CO2. (Note that solar isn't shown as it is not usually centrally generated)

It is unlikely that you will be saving money since the capital costs of going off the grid are currently much more expensive to get anywhere near the reliability of being on the grid. Sure electricity may be going up in the future but you never know - the marginal cost for producing more power is currently NatGas and it is cheap. Sure some of the other costs may be going up but that is because we have had SO much government intervention in the electricity markets in Ontario for 100+ years.

And what part of Ontario do you live in?

I'm in eastern ontario. power goes out after big storms, particularly after ice storms. Because we're on a well no power = no water. The grid is aging and it's going to get more expensive as it's updated.