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Wow, why so negative? Being a business owner myself, I can tell you that cost of acquiring new customers can totally justify a couple of hundred $$ to give to your old clients for referrals, and it doesn't necessarily come out of your next client pocket. Its just one of the costs of doing business. If the vendor quotes the same price per wt, what is the reason for the referred client to feel cheated or taken advantage of ?
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Since you ask, and without rancor:
The referred customer need not feel anything. For that matter, they may well never even know or even think about it, and I bet the vendor won't be inclined to broach the subject or volunteer anything.
I note your use of the word "necessarily".
Business owners can pay a lot of money to get leads. I'm aware of that, and aware that a lot of those are poor/useless. Cust. referrals usually have a much higher probability of a successful close. I get that too. I'm not anti-business. Running your own or any business is tough. I believe and respect that.
Regardless of how it's done, the cost of acquiring customers must be borne by someone. Businesses are not charities. Some businesses may account for leads/advertising/information the same way they pay business taxes or facility mortgages - overhead. Others may figure lead acquisition the same way they set panel/inverter costs - against a particular job. Some others, a mix or some other methods.
Until/if tax credits end taking that crutch away and thereby forcing shoddy vendors back under the rock they came from, I suspect a lot of those vendors will be clueless about it how to run a business and see referrals as something that they must get out of a particular job - one way or another.
I'm more than willing to accept that you are one of those (other) ethical vendors who will survive by knocking your brains out to get it right, and who sees the fly by night, unethical crowd as an impediment to your success or at least an anchor you drag into the future.
You may see my opinions as negative. I respect your opinion and your position. I see my opinions on the subject as realistic and practical.
Before I changed careers and took a pay cut to become an engineer, I had a moderately successful career as a peddler. And, to the extent that what I think I may understand from that prior ~ 10 yr. career selling industrial power equipment may hold true to other businesses, including solar sales, believe that things I've seen can often be a fact of life. I'm not a stranger to some occasional hard choices dealing with ethics and self respect that often rear their ugly heads in business.
Unethical practices do not exist everywhere, or all the time, and not everyone is a crook for sure, but with no sure way to tell, referral fees leave a doubt in my mind as to whether they can be something that adds to the cost of a job, or add pressure to cut corners on a job, thereby decreasing the job cost to pay for the referral fee. Neither one adds value for the customer in any way I can conjure up.Comment
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Man, you need to lighten up! Sounds like you have been screwed over too many times. Presumably, people ask for referrals here because they like the deals being quoted, and would be happy to get the same, with minimal effort on their part. Maybe I am too zen about this, but if a vendor offers me the same deal as the one I saw and liked, I am not gonna waste my time wondering what % of his profit was spent on advertising/referrals, much less beat him up until he coughs up this % back. I am just gonna take it, say thanks and get the project going. Of course dishonesty exists everywhere - no argument there - I am just choosing not to dwell on it (unless it's an obvious rip off - but then I wouldn't ask for that referral
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genesmasher: Thank you for your PM and provided info.Comment
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Opinions vary. In response to what I'll take as your suggestion, I could say naïve folks would be better off, IMO only, if they "heavied up", woke up and understood that sometimes, especially when there is money on the table, not everyone who tells them what they want to hear is their friend or telling them the truth.Man, you need to lighten up! Sounds like you have been screwed over too many times. Presumably, people ask for referrals here because they like the deals being quoted, and would be happy to get the same, with minimal effort on their part. Maybe I am too zen about this, but if a vendor offers me the same deal as the one I saw and liked, I am not gonna waste my time wondering what % of his profit was spent on advertising/referrals, much less beat him up until he coughs up this % back. I am just gonna take it, say thanks and get the project going. Of course dishonesty exists everywhere - no argument there - I am just choosing not to dwell on it (unless it's an obvious rip off - but then I wouldn't ask for that referral)
FWIW: I don't feel as though I've been screwed over more than anyone else in life. As a matter of fact, I'm probably about the luckiest SOB walking the planet, but that's off topic.
However, I was on the other side of the negotiating/selling table for a long time. Since then, after retirement and since about 2007 or so, I've had the opportunity to see a lot of residential solar work from quote to install. Along the way, I've also talked a few people out of making what anyone with one eye and one balloon knot would call a disastrous decision in a manner not unlike how I rant about things around here. I must have had a Dutch uncle somewhere in my background.
So far, I've seen a lot of solar ignorant folks - probably about 3/4 or more of the 75 or so installs in my HOA, basically - get - screwed.
Those who leased or PPA'd mostly got it the worst.
IMO, if those folks, purchase, lease or PPA knew some of what I think I might know about two things: Sales techniques and solar energy, I bet I'd see a lot fewer solar arrays around my HOA, and those arrays I did see would be smaller and better designed. People see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and believe what they want.
Read a sampling of posts on this forum and tell me how informed you think most people are. From public opinion to ever present and IMO, deceptive advertising to peer pressure to keep up with the Jones' and a boatload of other stuff, the deck is stacked against rational, informed choice and most folks are clueless about it. Many of those uninformed folks are giving referrals to vendors for 30 pieces of silver, sometime or often, if the vendor solicitation fine print can be believed, anonymously.
Think about that for a minute. Your name and some contact info will go, possibly unknown to you, from someone who is solar ignorant and who is ratting you out the reward cheese to someone who, if solar vendors quoted on this forum are to be believed at all, is in a cut throat business. What control is there that that referral cost will not wind up either as a buried cost or skimped job quality. I'm not saying it's a certainty - only that there is nothing to prevent it. My experience makes me skeptical of a high probability that such a scenario will result in a more cost effective or better quality install. I can't see an advantage to the customer.
On referrals, and to be clear: In the context of this thread, I'm writing about paid referrals, usually solicited by vendors. While I may have doubts about their value, similar to my grandmothers opinions about combustion engineering or supersonic flow, unpaid and solicited opinions such as requested on this forum via PM's, do not, IMO, guarantee a situation were the overall job cost could be impacted. If they do turn into a paid referral, they can create that opportunity and can, with a bit of thought, create that perception in the mind of some folks you call screwed over and I call educated and practical critical thinkers.
To come full circle, opinions vary.
Take what you want of the above. Scrap the test.Comment
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Sorry I didn't say it right the first time. What I meant was that I have not selected and awarded the PV project to the final contractor yet. Of course, I am biased on a good reputable as pricing. It will be a balance of both, with one might be a little outweighing the other. Your advice is well taken and appreciated nonetheless.Comment
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Hi Mungosocal,
We are in LA and in the market for SP system. But none of quotes we have received came close to your price. Please PM us contact info (we are not at the status to PM anyone yet.
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Has anyone in LA seeing this price? Please let us know as we are serious in getting the system.
Thanks,
solardesireComment
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One can get better per Watt prices on larger systems. Several reasons for this but they don't matter. Roof type and age matter too.Comment
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I'm sure not doubting anyone's veracity, but I bet you may have a hard time finding a similarly low price in So. Ca. But, I've been wrong before. I hope you're successful. Let us know and the rest will beat a path to that vendors door, probably until S.P. finds out. Some have claimed abound $4.10- $4.20/Watt. Sometimes a "friends and family" discount appears. Sometimes folks confuse pre and post tax credit pricing. When the CSI data base was still active for residential, one low price for Sunpower looked bogus, so I called the vendor. It turned out that the price/Watt was correct but the vendor was also the customer.Hi Mungosocal,
We are in LA and in the market for SP system. But none of quotes we have received came close to your price. Please PM us contact info (we are not at the status to PM anyone yet.)
Has anyone in LA seeing this price? Please let us know as we are serious in getting the system.
Thanks,
solardesireComment
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If you don't mind the question, for what reasons are you specifically targeting Sunpower? I'm guessing it isn't cost effectiveness, but there are definitely some neat engineering aspects of the panels that could convince a tech minded person to buy them anyway.Hi Mungosocal,
We are in LA and in the market for SP system. But none of quotes we have received came close to your price. Please PM us contact info (we are not at the status to PM anyone yet.)
Has anyone in LA seeing this price? Please let us know as we are serious in getting the system.
Thanks,
solardesireCS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozxComment
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They may be gee whiz bang techno pop, but most any solar panel, Sunpower and most everyone else's are still a commodity like water heaters, faucets and garbage disposals. They all, Sunpower's and most everyone else's, produce power in a reliable way and probably for a long time. Sunpower does that only they extract about a 20% upfront premium and a bunch of hype that peddles a bill of good that may have some dubious value, but nowhere near (IMO only) the usual and common upfront premium.
I'd bet that another way to look at a roof as being too small in a particular application might be to think of the chosen solar size to be too large. Many/most systems are oversized. Usually because people are oversold because of solar ignorance.
It's sure a free country and I'll support their right to do what they want, but oversizing is usually a mistake borne of ignorance.Comment
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