Please help me decide on which way to go. (enPhase vs SolarEdge vs LG)

[chuckgm3]

Here are the details I'm looking at. I do have some shading from a neighboring tree. I thought I'd prefer micro inverters to the SolarEdge but I'm not entirely sure.

One thing that's got me a bit confused. My sales rep insists that the EnPhase M250 micro inverters are a good match for the LG 305w panels. However, as I understand it, the M250's would be a bottleneck at 250w each, not allowing my 305w panels to produce to their full potential. I know they won't hit 305, but I've seen them produce 280+ on a good day. Am I missing something here?

7.6kw system
9,349kWh /year production (estimated)
$30,424 before rebate.
$3.25/kWh

This includes:
25x LG305w Panels
25x enPhase M250 microinverters
200amp Main panel upgrade
Installation, permits, roofing repairs, etc. etc.
25 year warranty on everything

My roof it a bit oddly shaped so the design has 3 arrays
Array 1: 15 Panels, 30deg tilt, 210deg azimuth
Array 2: 7 panels, 30deg tilt, 300deg azimuth
Array 3: 3 panels, 30deg title, 210deg azimuth

If I go with SolarEdge optimizers and inverter, the price only drops by about $500. If I want them to use LG305A1C-B3 with built-in LG micro inverters which presumably would not have the same 250w bottleneck as the enPhase inverters, I'm looking at an additional $2000.

This is in SoCal, I'm on Edison's TOU-B plan and I have an electric car.

Any input is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[thejq]

There were quite a few threads about enphase vs solaredge with LG300/305. Here's a more recent one http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...-kW-San-Marcos FWIW. the investment community seems to like solaredge much more. SEDG is now 3x the capitalization of ENPH which has been in the business a lot longer.

[Alisobob]

Its almost like asking what your favorite beer is.... much is personal preference.

I like my Enphase inverters, I like the performance and the monitoring program, and I like the 25 warranty.

I like the warranty my installer gave ( to basically step in at any point in the 25 years where Enphase cannot / will not honor their warranty), and I like they are cheap.

I like they are out of sight, out of mind. No big , clunky inverter box strapped to the side of my home, with conduit running everywhere.

I even bought 2 extra ones on Amazon, for $139 each.... just in case.

If I dont think I need them, I can always add 2 panels to my system. With Enphase, expansion is effortless.

I think I'm set for the next 20 years..... Easy-Peasy

[foo1bar]

Its almost like asking what your favorite beer is.... much is personal preference.

I'll have wine instead.

I used Solaredge for my house

How I see it compare to enphase:
* Similar per-panel monitoring
* Similar ease of expansion (add panel and racking, hook up the optimizer into existing string of optimizers)

Downsides:
* Shorter warranty
* "big, clunky inverter box strapped to the side of my home" (but that doesn't really bother me)

Upsides:
* Cost/price
* Cost/price
* Did I mention cost/price?
* maybe better effiiciency with inverter in shade on side of house, rather than on roof

[Ian S]

Here are the details I'm looking at. I do have some shading from a neighboring tree. I thought I'd prefer micro inverters to the SolarEdge but I'm not entirely sure.

One thing that's got me a bit confused. My sales rep insists that the EnPhase M250 micro inverters are a good match for the LG 305w panels. However, as I understand it, the M250's would be a bottleneck at 250w each, not allowing my 305w panels to produce to their full potential. I know they won't hit 305, but I've seen them produce 280+ on a good day. Am I missing something here?

7.6kw system
9,349kWh /year production (estimated)
$30,424 before rebate.
$3.25/kWh

This includes:
25x LG305w Panels
25x enPhase M250 microinverters
200amp Main panel upgrade
Installation, permits, roofing repairs, etc. etc.
25 year warranty on everything

My roof it a bit oddly shaped so the design has 3 arrays
Array 1: 15 Panels, 30deg tilt, 210deg azimuth
Array 2: 7 panels, 30deg tilt, 300deg azimuth
Array 3: 3 panels, 30deg title, 210deg azimuth

If I go with SolarEdge optimizers and inverter, the price only drops by about $500. If I want them to use LG305A1C-B3 with built-in LG micro inverters which presumably would not have the same 250w bottleneck as the enPhase inverters, I'm looking at an additional $2000.

This is in SoCal, I'm on Edison's TOU-B plan and I have an electric car.

Any input is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Your numbers seem off. I calculate $4.00/watt pre-tax credit. May not be too bad since panel upgrade is included. That array with a 300 degree azimuth suffers a ~25% loss in annual production compared to a zero degree azimuth. You are apt to see some clipping on occasion using the Enphase 250 watt micros. Whether it would be significant $$ wise, it's hard to say. How hot does it get where you are? If you're inland and summer temps are above 100F, consider that baking all the power inverter electronics on your roof might be worrisome. SE puts much of them in the wall mounted inverter which is better IMHO.

[AaronG]

For everyone's information other than chuckgm3 as I know him personally (I told him to post here) and we've discussed my solar setup at length...

I have the LG305N1C-B3 DC's with the SE P300 Power Optimizers and the SE6000US string inverter. I have the inverter inside my garage, out of the sun. So far it barely gets warm.
This is yesterday for me at my peak, it seems about 280-285W per panel right now. So with 250W max AC out of those Enphase, I can't imagine you won't be clipping at the micro inverter 250W max AC output.

:EDIT: and in *my* mind, I'd be deciding between the SE setup and the LG micro inverters with what I know now. I dont think I'd do the Enphase with that clipping issue, but I wasnt sure, so I said lets get feedback here. If the clipping was a moot point, I'd consider them.
And of course here was my similar thread last year when I went through this http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...s-got-some-Q-s
solar.jpg

[sensij]

@AaronG

Your PVOutput data is presenting a much more accurate picture of your production than the SolarEdge energy or panel data. I've recently installed a revenue grade meter, and the agreement between it and other calculations I've performed based on back calculations from *known* household consumption, I am confident stating that depending on the report you are looking at, SE is overreporting by as much as 4%.

Looking at your PVO data from yesterday, you can see that if you had Enphase 250's, your output would have been capped at 5250 W. You exceeded that from about 1:00 pm to 3:30 pm. The total energy "clipped" would have been about 0.57 kWh. As we get further into summer, that amount clipped is likely to drop (due primarily to temp increase and less optimum sun angle).

In other words, the amount of energy lost due to clipping in an Enphase 250 + LG305 system is not likely to add up to very much. I would suggest that the choice between them is better made by preferences in cost, inverter tech, warranty, or installer preference than by any difference in total system output.

Also, for PVOutput donators, a revision to the SolarEdge uploader has been made that allows data with 5 min resolution, instead of 15 min. All you have to do is update the status interval to 5 min... leave the polling interval at 15 min to avoid running into SolarEdge's API call limit. Unfortunately, the way SolarEdge calculates their averages means that synchonizing the generation data with the net consumption data from Wattvision (or the Eagle device directly) is kind of a lost cause, and especially on cloudy days, you should expect to see lots of weird spikes and perhaps bad daily totals for the calculated consumption.

[AaronG]

@AaronG

Your PVOutput data is presenting a much more accurate picture of your production than the SolarEdge energy or panel data. I've recently installed a revenue grade meter, and the agreement between it and other calculations I've performed based on back calculations from *known* household consumption, I am confident stating that depending on the report you are looking at, SE is overreporting by as much as 4%.

Looking at your PVO data from yesterday, you can see that if you had Enphase 250's, your output would have been capped at 5250 W. You exceeded that from about 1:00 pm to 3:30 pm. The total energy "clipped" would have been about 0.57 kWh. As we get further into summer, that amount clipped is likely to drop (due primarily to temp increase and less optimum sun angle).

In other words, the amount of energy lost due to clipping in an Enphase 250 + LG305 system is not likely to add up to very much. I would suggest that the choice between them is better made by preferences in cost, inverter tech, warranty, or installer preference than by any difference in total system output.

Also, for PVOutput donators, a revision to the SolarEdge uploader has been made that allows data with 5 min resolution, instead of 15 min. All you have to do is update the status interval to 5 min... leave the polling interval at 15 min to avoid running into SolarEdge's API call limit. Unfortunately, the way SolarEdge calculates their averages means that synchonizing the generation data with the net consumption data from Wattvision (or the Eagle device directly) is kind of a lost cause, and especially on cloudy days, you should expect to see lots of weird spikes and perhaps bad daily totals for the calculated consumption.

Thanks for the info on that. Yeah PVO may show me at like 40.xkWh produced, but yet my inverter or the SE site you see shows 42.x. My friend with the Enphase says that he gets nearly perfect data to PVO.

Yeah if the clipping only results in a smaller amount of lost kW, then maybe if he is paying thousands more for it, it doesnt make sense. Or if the warranty is way less then it doesnt make sense. I did get 20yr warranty on my SE stuff, but not 25 like he may get on his Enphase stuff. My installer quoted me the same price for a SE inverter with SE Power Opt. vs the LG Micro Inverters. Enphase was never on the table.

[silversaver]

For everyone's information other than chuckgm3 as I know him personally (I told him to post here) and we've discussed my solar setup at length...

I have the LG305N1C-B3 DC's with the SE P300 Power Optimizers and the SE6000US string inverter. I have the inverter inside my garage, out of the sun. So far it barely gets warm.
This is yesterday for me at my peak, it seems about 280-285W per panel right now. So with 250W max AC out of those Enphase, I can't imagine you won't be clipping at the micro inverter 250W max AC output.

:EDIT: and in *my* mind, I'd be deciding between the SE setup and the LG micro inverters with what I know now. I dont think I'd do the Enphase with that clipping issue, but I wasnt sure, so I said lets get feedback here. If the clipping was a moot point, I'd consider them.
And of course here was my similar thread last year when I went through this http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...s-got-some-Q-s
[ATTACH=CONFIG]6680[/ATTACH]

Somehow the Solaredge monitoring alway shows little higher on output vs. other made inverters. I'm not sure if solaredge really that "good" or not. DC vs AV @ 0.93 wow. Hoping someone has revenus graded meter to confirm the realy output.

[AaronG]

Somehow the Solaredge monitoring alway shows little higher on output vs. other made inverters. I'm not sure if solaredge really that "good" or not. DC vs AV @ 0.93 wow. Hoping someone has revenus graded meter to confirm the realy output.

At the end of the day when I am producing 0kWh, the # that is directly on the inverter display, matches perfectly with their web portal. It's just that since PVO can only grab the data from SE API every 15 minutes (to avoid maxing my # of connections per day) it is only getting the production at that moment, not the total produced between my polling intervals (as I understand it) so those metrics are just a bit off.

Anyyyhowww, I dont want to side-track his post. Back to chuckgm3

[Alisobob]

@AaronG


In other words, the amount of energy lost due to clipping in an Enphase 250 + LG305 system is not likely to add up to very much. I would suggest that the choice between them is better made by preferences in cost, inverter tech, warranty, or installer preference than by any difference in total system output.

Supposedly... from both Enphase data, and my installers real world experiences, up until you hit a clipping condition... the Enphase micros are being driven harder, and are therefore more efficient than other inverters...

solar71.JPG

I'm clipping from noon until 2pm... but supposedly gaining more output from 8am until noon, and from 2pm til 6pm than I'm losing from the clipping. Its also the reason I have M-215, and not the M-250s. The 250's would probably not clip at all, the the added expense of them may never get recouped from the slightly better output from noon until 2pm.

They were presented as a option when the contract was being finalized... buy my guy told me he even has the 215, and not the 250's on his own home, and he can have anything he wants. These are both with 270 watt panels though. With 300+ watt panels, you probably want the 250's.

As far as heat is concerned, under the hood of your car gets WAY hotter, than under a solar panel. All the electronics bake away under the hood mile after mile, year after year, and really seem to care. I think its a overblown issue.

[silversaver]

At the end of the day when I am producing 0kWh, the # that is directly on the inverter display, matches perfectly with their web portal. It's just that since PVO can only grab the data from SE API every 15 minutes (to avoid maxing my # of connections per day) it is only getting the production at that moment, not the total produced between my polling intervals (as I understand it) so those metrics are just a bit off.

Anyyyhowww, I dont want to side-track his post. Back to chuckgm3

The reason I mention that is I have Locus Energy LGate 101, which is consider revernue-grade, it always display about 1.5% less than what shows on my SMA 6000-TL-US-12 inverter.

back to original topic to OP. I do think Solaredge might be a better choice over Enphase.

[sensij]

At the end of the day when I am producing 0kWh, the # that is directly on the inverter display, matches perfectly with their web portal. It's just that since PVO can only grab the data from SE API every 15 minutes (to avoid maxing my # of connections per day) it is only getting the production at that moment, not the total produced between my polling intervals (as I understand it) so those metrics are just a bit off.

Anyyyhowww, I dont want to side-track his post. Back to chuckgm3

Just to continue the tangent one step further... the data in the 15 min version of the SolarEdge API is just an average of the 5 min data (this is provable), which in some cases may be an average of higher frequency data we can't see, and in other cases may be instantaneous data (harder to prove). I've gotten lots of conflicting information from SolarEdge techs on this, and they've basically admitted they don't know, and would need to refer me to engineering if I want real answers.

[sensij]

Supposedly... from both Enphase data, and my installers real world experiences, up until you hit a clipping condition... the Enphase micros are being driven harder, and are therefore more efficient than other inverters...

That is probably BS, even if the installer really believes it.

The 250's would probably not clip at all, the the added expense of them may never get recouped from the slightly better output from noon until 2pm.

Even the 250's would probably clip very rarely with 270's, but I agree with your conclusion.

[thejq]

Thanks for the info on that. Yeah PVO may show me at like 40.xkWh produced, but yet my inverter or the SE site you see shows 42.x. My friend with the Enphase says that he gets nearly perfect data to PVO.

I think it happens to everyone with SE. FYI, yesterday my SE shows 33.58KWh, but PVoutput registered 32.57KWh. The difference seems to be around 3% on a clear day and somewhat less on a cloudy day. A wild guess is maybe the inverter is calculating DC wattage, but reports the actual AC wattage in the API (which PVoutput reads), since SE claims 97% efficiency, hence 3% difference. Someone else also speculated that the 15-min update rate has something to do with it, but the symmetry of the bell curve should have taken care of the lagging effect. So for comparison with other brands, it's probably safer to use the PVoutputs data, or takes SE's data and divide 1.03.