Want to DIY a 6000w system - Where to start? Parts list?

[ZoNiE]

Get a life! Some small percentage of all rooftops are really oriented correctly for solar - unless you want to place panels facing north in the US then everyone is OK.

OK, I'll agree with that, Maybe not EVERY rooftop, but certainly many, many more then what is out there. But then Solar City wanted to put them on the east facing slope of my 2-12 pitch roof instead of the south or west because it would be cheaper and easier for them, and then the annual increase on the lease was higher than my utility's gains... I sent them packing.

The problem with the Solar industry in the US is as it resembles the Air Conditioning business, for example. They are more expensive then they have to be because they can get away with it. I tried like hell to get a contractor to install and connect my system, but since I didn't buy the modules from them, they were not interested in just doing the labor and selling me the inverter and other materials. Not interested in earning a fair profit on the labor and some supplies. I can do the work myself, but then I cannot get the tax incentives. Some contractors will do the "Partial" job, My buddy in Texas was able to do this, but not here in Phoenix. One of those contractors is out of business now. Got what he deserved, and Had I hired them, I would have no warranty...This is a lot of money to spend. The ROI is bad enough, so no wonder many want to do it themselves.

Tax incentives are there to help the homeowners save money, and the suppliers to grow the business, but what really happens is that the suppliers additionally mark up the system by the amount the incentives save, so the homeowner gets nothing really, and the suppliers reap larger profits. It's a Lose-Lose for us. Some people have done better without the incentives. I want to be able to design and install my own system, pay to have it inspected and connected, and get the incentives, but the "system" works against that. So, as a (qualified, skilled) homeowner, we do it ourselves, and get no tax incentives, or we pay a contractor more than they would charge if the incentives were not present and are out of pocket nearly 2X.

And then people wonder why we come here for help and advice.

[Colt45]

Price depends a lot on what needs to be done to install the system at your house. Few jobs are the same, you may have a lot of things on the roof that need to be moved, your existing service equipment may not support adding PV, wire runs may may be a PITA to install, 12 pitch roof is harder to work on that a 4, you get the point...

You also state that the tie-in needs to be done by a licensed electrician, technically ALL of the system needs to be done by a licensed electrician in a lot of jurisdictions. However if you are doing it yourself that may be allowed also you will need to check. You will need building and electrical permits and approval from your utility.

Just the panels are about a $1/watt depending on what you get, and then you still need all the other "stuff".

[russ]

What a depressing thread...

The OP and the 3rd Poster were treated horribly.

It really exposes the reality of the Solar Industry and why there isn't an array on every rooftop.

Get a life! Some small percentage of all rooftops are really oriented correctly for solar - unless you want to place panels facing north in the US then everyone is OK.

Most people would be better off investing in a solar farm actually.

No one was treated horribly. If someone comes here and expects lists of vendors and step by step instructions on demand they happen to be in the wrong place.

[ZoNiE]

What a depressing thread...

The OP and the 3rd Poster were treated horribly.

It really exposes the reality of the Solar Industry and why there isn't an array on every rooftop.

[J.P.M.]

A very important thing, which I haven't seen any school teaching. We called them design
reviews at BTL, and they were quite rigorous. All I remember about school was being
required to solve 10 cookbook problems inside of an hour, something never required on
the job. Bruce Roe

Same here. We had formal design reviews that were part devil's advocate and a lot of quiet calc/drawing checking and what if scenarios - and BTW, different from HAZop (hazard opportunity) meetings. Before and after that, there was constant checking your own and other's work as a matter of policy that fostered an attitude of get it right. The Q.C. inspectors were most often on their own. Scary to think that about in some ways. I wouldn't want that responsibility w/out backup.

[bcroe]

FWIW, over the years I've formed an opinion that poor Q.C. can do as much damage as poor engineering. Inspectors are more often working on their own. My experience was to always to and ask someone to check my work and to be asked to check theirs.

A very important thing, which I haven't seen any school teaching. We called them design
reviews at BTL, and they were quite rigorous. All I remember about school was being
required to solve 10 cookbook problems inside of an hour, something never required on
the job. Bruce Roe

[bcroe]

Quite a few years back now but I remember a journeyman electrician working at the plant in Portland, Oregon who was grandfathered into the construction electricians union since he had been an electrician in Alabama. The fool used a light bulb with two wires taped to it as a voltage tester. He was making 15$ per hour then.

The poor fellow was totally useless - except the union sent him.

I used a 48V spotlight in the phone lab for decades. Nothing wrong with that, but
the USER needs to UNDERSTAND what is going on. Good for charging & discharging
large caps, checking for the presence of real power (as opposed to static read by
a super high impedance DVM). Can be seen across the lab when running a test.
Even used it for emergency lighting when the AC went down. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

exactly my point russ.
heck I once worked near a guy (not with) who was trying to teach an apprentice to test voltage by the old finger thumb method. thumb on the wire, finger on the box. said once you get a good callous it just tingles. I pulled the kid aside and showed him what a tick tracer was and advised him to invest the $20 and be a little safer without having to carry his wiggy around all the time. this was many years ago when they were a pretty new tool.
ive seen a lot of crazy stuff and a LOT of worthless wiremen I wouldn't trust to inspect anything.

FWIW, over the years I've formed an opinion that poor Q.C. can do as much damage as poor engineering. Inspectors are more often working on their own. My experience was to always to and ask someone to check my work and to be asked to check theirs.

[Dumbcluck]

exactly my point russ.
heck I once worked near a guy (not with) who was trying to teach an apprentice to test voltage by the old finger thumb method. thumb on the wire, finger on the box. said once you get a good callous it just tingles. I pulled the kid aside and showed him what a tick tracer was and advised him to invest the $20 and be a little safer without having to carry his wiggy around all the time. this was many years ago when they were a pretty new tool.
ive seen a lot of crazy stuff and a LOT of worthless wiremen I wouldn't trust to inspect anything.

[russ]

Quite a few years back now but I remember a journeyman electrician working at the plant in Portland, Oregon who was grandfathered into the construction electricians union since he had been an electrician in Alabama. The fool used a light bulb with two wires taped to it as a voltage tester. He was making 15$ per hour then.

The poor fellow was totally useless - except the union sent him.

[Dumbcluck]

I agree with suneagle that not all electricians are qualified in all aspects of electrical installations. that is why very few ever make it to the inspection level. electrical inspectors are required to have a clear understanding of all aspects of the code and continue to educate themselves on new codes where most electricians are busy just trying to keep their jobs.
would you allow a volkswagon mechanic to inspect your tesla? sure hes a mechanic but well outside his range of expertise.
of course there are jurisdictions that I have dealt with in the past where they had one general inspector for all trades and sadly they lacked expertise in most trades.
anyway, the basic job of any inspector is to insure safety to people and property.

[Rdjntx]

I agree. It is always good to get another set of eyes on something.

well not always ... but usually

[SunEagle]

If the installer is an electrician, that's fine, because it still means that an electrician has looked at the installation.

I'm not suggesting replacing the inspection by the building inspector, I'm saying that, if I were in charge, an electrician would take a look at the installation before the final inspection by the building inspector, who may know the code, but who may never have pulled a wire or installed an outlet in his life.

SunEagle, good points, but again I wouldn't suggest replacing the AHJ inspection. But I think any electrician looking at the system would be a good double-check, especially for a simple system that a DIYer might install.

I agree. It is always good to get another set of eyes on something.

[sdold]

2) You are saying one can inspect themselves

If the installer is an electrician, that's fine, because it still means that an electrician has looked at the installation.

I'm not suggesting replacing the inspection by the building inspector, I'm saying that, if I were in charge, an electrician would take a look at the installation before the final inspection by the building inspector, who may know the code, but who may never have pulled a wire or installed an outlet in his life.

SunEagle, good points, but again I wouldn't suggest replacing the AHJ inspection. But I think any electrician looking at the system would be a good double-check, especially for a simple system that a DIYer might install.

[SunEagle]

I think ultimately the requirements for code compliance and inspections belong in the administrative rule section of the state's building code (in the US) that deals with permits, inspections, local jurisdiction guidelines, etc.

My original point was that I think that a licensed electrician should perform the inspection, and he should look over enough of the system to make a good judgement as to the safety of the installation. To me, not requiring that is like letting an airplane owner remove and replace aileron cables and not have a licensed mechanic inspect the work afterward. I never suggested that codes should not be required to be followed.

Steve

One issue I see is that all electricians do not have the same experience and understanding of the entire NEC.

Electricians in each area; Utility, Industrial, Commercial and Residential, while they follow the Code in general also focus on specific areas based on their job requirements.

I would hope that the Inspector of a Solar PV system installation not only had experience but also a complete understanding of that part of the NEC code.

I have worked in the industrial area for more than 35 years and I can tell you when I interviewed a candidates for an electricians positions, and they only had residential experience I found a severe lack of 3 phase 480volt voltage understanding. On the flip side if someone in the Utility area has always been working on 13.8kv over head systems, they may have a lack of knowledge at the 120/240volt area and Solar PV installations in particular.

While the requirement of inspection may not need to be written in the NEC there needs to be a clear understanding that any inspection and approval should be performed by someone that has both experience and a solid understanding of both Local and National codes with respect to the type of installation performed.