Want to DIY a 6000w system - Where to start? Parts list?

[Mike90250]

First, while this forum is hosted by a solar company, we don't actually SELL product off of the Forum. The moderators are volunteers from all over the globe, and most have extensive solar experience.

We (moderators and experienced professionals) don't want to encourage neophytes to read sleazeball ads, spend thousands of dollars, and find out that solar in downtown cloudsville does not work. We give realistic expectations of what is actually feasible. Requirements are mechanical engineering (keeps panels from caving in the roof) electrical engineering (keeps electrical fires away) and system design, it's not a simple "plug & play" business.

So, yes, we discourage many ill planned ideas, and give free invaluable advice to folks going forward with a sound plan.

[SunEagle]

I have had the same experience here as well.

The reason someone looking for help from this Forum (to perform a DIY system) is that while they may be totally qualified to do the work but most are not. When it comes to electricity those that do not have "hands on" experience can and will not install their system per code or meet every safety requirements.

So some of us try to push back on the DIY with the reason is that we do not want to help someone with too little understanding about the basics of electricity to perform the work and then get someone hurt. We rather advise them to use a qualified and licensed electrician for the wiring and connections portion of the project. It is a safe and solid advise to follow.

[alterego]

I must have stumbled onto the wrong forum. Is this a vender/professional installer forum? If so, I can see why there is such a resistance. Honestly, this is the 1st time in the many years I've been on various forums that I have been met with such anti-DIY. Maybe the solar crowd is a different type? Shrug.

What do you mean by "What you can get here" and "You shouldn't waste your time here"? I came here with the hopes of receiving some help putting a parts list together and perhaps the names of some reputable parts venders. It's become evident that I came to the wrong place for that info. Anyone have a suggestion on a forum that is geared towards DIY'ers and more friendly to non- solar panel install professionals?

I suppose we all have an idea of what we are worth, so thats a fair point. However, I prefer to do things myself and my schedule allows for it. But, we can agree to disagree about men being less handy. These days, it seems the average guy couldn't change his own oil or spark plugs if it were required that he do so...so I can see why an install like this would seem so daunting. Thats not to take away from the technical requirements/abilities of this job - it's not exactly for someone who hasn't ever put on a pair of gloves...but, I can't find anything in this install that suggests it's beyond the capabilities of an experienced DIY'er.

I have had the same experience here as well.

[Beanyboy57]

FWIW, I think impugning someone's motives by saying they are paid to have an opinion without some backup to verify that statement is sour grapes, or a cheap shot. Or, mixing metaphors, a cheap sour grapeshot.[/QUOTE]

I was giving my opinion that is all. I agree with everything you have written. I guess my concern is that the fossil fuel industry has many lobbyists that are doing their upmost to discredit the renewable energy industry. Also, some renewable energy installers are pricing systems too high and getting away with it because people (like myself) believe that we should be doing all that we can to reduce carbon emissions. I just wanted to say that everyone should read with critical intelligence everything they read on this site and in the media, regarding fossil fuels and renewable energy. Both sides are pushing their own argument and the truth lays somewhere in between the two, in my opinion.
I am just a guy that installed his own system off grid system 4 years ago and have watched it work perfectly since then, but having said that, it will never make a profit. I also have a grid tied system on my city home, that makes a profit each year, on average about $800 Australian.
At my workplace I have just organised the installation of a 12kw hybrid system. I am eagerly awaiting the results of its production.

[inetdog]

Solar and wind have their places - solar as a bit player in the energy scenario with wind far ahead of it.

But to put that into perspective, wind is a player at the commercial level, but only very rarely (in just the right situation) for individual homeowners or even homesteaders.

[russ]

Like J.P.M. says - no way to tell for sure but I am sure in my own mind that no one here is in the employ of or paid by a utility to post bad things about solar. Utilities don't need to do that - people like Beanyboy do a tremendous job of making solar look foolish.

I was a moderator on a green site for a couple of years - anytime someone disagrees with your position they immediately claim you are paid by 1) big oil, 2) big pharma, 3) big ag, 4) utilities and on and on. Weak minds can not find any other reason that evereyone doesn't believe the same BS as they do.

Solar and wind have their places - solar as a bit player in the energy scenario with wind far ahead of it.

[J.P.M.]

There are a few hostile guys on here who I am sure are paid by utilities companies to discourage people from taking up the solar challenge, they never contribute anything but bullcrap and insults. You will find out who they are pretty quickly, however there are some people who genuinely want to give you the best advice.
I am not an electrician and I totally installed my 24 volt off-grid system a few years back now, without a hitch on my shed. I just followed the advice of a guy that had done it before, it's hardly rocket science but of course there are safety risks if you are not too handy. My grid tie system on my city home was professionally installed but as I watched them I could have done it all myself apart from the last bit of wiring into the panel because that has to be done by a licensed electrician. I worked in construction for 17 years before I changed careers.

While I doubt any regular posters or moderators on this forum are in the employ of utilities for the purpose of bad mouthing alternative energy sources as you seem to pronounce, that's a moot point. There is no way to independently verify any poster's employment or compensation sources.

No matter.

If you are implying that everyone who discourages what they believe to be wrong headed thinking or a poor course of action is a solar naysayer, I'd suggest that's a narrow minded outlook. Other's who seem negative or skeptical may actually know something the rest of us haven't learned yet. Also, they may just be right (or wrong). None of us is as smart as all of us.

First, opinions are what they are with no verification needed.

Second, if technically incorrect or false information is presented, one, or several posters will very likely challenge that information, using published facts, verifiable information, or scientific or engineering principles to buttress their positions in giving reasons and backup for the challenge - perhaps speaking truth to power, when countering the "Solar's good for nothing" argument, or perhaps as likely, using the same hard logic, scientific and engineering principles and known facts to counter the often inexperienced and non critical, wishful thinking of the "Solar will save the world " side of the discussion.

That some regular posters are considered abrasive and acerbic in their delivery by other posters is a fact. So what ? It's also a fact that one can always block their postings, or complain to the management. I'd suggest don't take it personally or ignore it, or best of all, speak truth to power/B.S. if you are so inclined.

FWIW, I think impugning someone's motives by saying they are paid to have an opinion without some backup to verify that statement is sour grapes, or a cheap shot. Or, mixing metaphors, a cheap sour grapeshot.

[J.P.M.]

What might be taken as hostility toward people that want to do an install themselves is really some of us trying to make that person understand some of the flaming hoops one must jump through to get approval and acceptance for a grid tie system.

What you haven't read is some of the posts from people that did not heed the advise and went full tilt into the install only to find out they could not make the final connection because of not following the local code and rules and ended up spending a lot more to get it right.

Sure a grid tie system can be installed by the homeowner but they have to understand all of what is required including the permitting and approvals. If they underestimate what the job requires they end up spending a lot more than they should have.

All we try to do is give advice to the DIY system installers is to FIRST do the research and find out what must be performed for an approved and accepted install in their community. Usually that includes installation drawings and calculations the meet the local building and electrical codes. If done wrong, it could result in an unsafe condition and get someone hurt.

Like some others out there I have over 35 years with hands on electrical experience and yet due to not have the proper licensing can't install a pv system on my home. Those are the rules for where I live.

+1. I'd add a comment or 2: Some folks have their minds made up and simply don't want to be confused by the facts. And, some folks you just can't reach.

[SunEagle]

There are a few hostile guys on here who I am sure are paid by utilities companies to discourage people from taking up the solar challenge, they never contribute anything but bullcrap and insults. You will find out who they are pretty quickly, however there are some people who genuinely want to give you the best advice.
I am not an electrician and I totally installed my 24 volt off-grid system a few years back now, without a hitch on my shed. I just followed the advice of a guy that had done it before, it's hardly rocket science but of course there are safety risks if you are not too handy. My grid tie system on my city home was professionally installed but as I watched them I could have done it all myself apart from the last bit of wiring into the panel because that has to be done by a licensed electrician. I worked in construction for 17 years before I changed careers.

What might be taken as hostility toward people that want to do an install themselves is really some of us trying to make that person understand some of the flaming hoops one must jump through to get approval and acceptance for a grid tie system.

What you haven't read is some of the posts from people that did not heed the advise and went full tilt into the install only to find out they could not make the final connection because of not following the local code and rules and ended up spending a lot more to get it right.

Sure a grid tie system can be installed by the homeowner but they have to understand all of what is required including the permitting and approvals. If they underestimate what the job requires they end up spending a lot more than they should have.

All we try to do is give advice to the DIY system installers is to FIRST do the research and find out what must be performed for an approved and accepted install in their community. Usually that includes installation drawings and calculations the meet the local building and electrical codes. If done wrong, it could result in an unsafe condition and get someone hurt.

Like some others out there I have over 35 years with hands on electrical experience and yet due to not have the proper licensing can't install a pv system on my home. Those are the rules for where I live.

[Beanyboy57]

So basically, I should expect to pay close to the $30k+ quotes I have been receiving?

Other than connecting to the electrical panel, what exactly in this install requires a licensed (or even a very experienced) electrician? I'm not an SAE mechanic or professional home builder, but I can still build a motor from bottom to top and frame an addition to my home. I must be missing something here. Since you asked; yes, we've always roofed our own homes when needed.

Man, so much hostility here.

There are a few hostile guys on here who I am sure are paid by utilities companies to discourage people from taking up the solar challenge, they never contribute anything but bullcrap and insults. You will find out who they are pretty quickly, however there are some people who genuinely want to give you the best advice.
I am not an electrician and I totally installed my 24 volt off-grid system a few years back now, without a hitch on my shed. I just followed the advice of a guy that had done it before, it's hardly rocket science but of course there are safety risks if you are not too handy. My grid tie system on my city home was professionally installed but as I watched them I could have done it all myself apart from the last bit of wiring into the panel because that has to be done by a licensed electrician. I worked in construction for 17 years before I changed careers.

[inetdog]

+1
I wish there were a way to make a single post a sticky.

[J.P.M.]

I read all 15 pages. I'm still not sure he was BS'ing anyone, just confused and overwhelmed, and eventually I think started to get the answers. I still think there was a bit of hostility right off the bat to this guy and the other guy who also stepped in to help a bit. I don't see anything wrong with the guy asking for a BOM, basically, as us noobs don't know that we need ground clips, MC4 connectors, etc. at the start. Perhaps we need a sticky that lists the basics given the typical North American asphalt rooftop so noobs have a place to start, or be referred to if they don't find it on their own.

If the OP had taken some time and made some effort to answer some of the asked questions through proactive reading/study, I bet a lot of the questions would be answered before arriving here, and those that remained would have been thought out some. He may even have abandoned the project, or decided to contract it out.

I once had a boss who had the patience of Job when it came to answering technical questions from those he supervised. However, woe betide those who did not make a serious effort to answer their own question before hand or not formulate the question in an articulate way. If that happened, he stated before hand, and all knew that he would make that questioner's life so miserable they would, to paraphrase Capt. Bly, curse their mother for giving them birth. Sometimes I miss the good old days.

I'd suggest forums such as this are not intended to provide detailed instructions and procedures in a concept to commissioning fashion with all the details in between laid out and taken care of. Those tasks may be better described as the stuff of project engineering.

This is a forum to exchange ideas and information and to seek, and give, answers and advice. It is not a design manual or a classroom, but there is a lot of wiggle room between those two ends.

It seems to me, some folks come in here with an assumed sense of entitlement expecting to be spoon fed answers to what they may think are simple situations. They then sometimes get upset, angry and hurt when told their question can't be answered in 25 words or less, or does not fit their preconceived notion of the answer that fit their ignorance of the subject, or means they'll need to tear half of the project apart because they are in way over their head and just found that out, or that their dumb ass ideas have been exposed in a public way.

For starters, I'd say, be careful what you ask for, and try to remember that not everyone who tells you what you don't like or agree with is your enemy or a mean spirited person.

Sometimes folks who post questions give their ignorance of what they are attempting to do away by the very nature of their questions and stated assumptions. That's fine with me. That's one way to learn. However, a lot of posters of that type may very well be dangerous to themselves and others by their lack of in depth (sometimes any depth) knowledge of the attempted task. Many of them are not qualified to do what they are attempting, and lack the patience and temperament to learn.

What you don't know and don't take the time to learn can hurt you. And others. This poses a problem for posters who are knowledgeable in a questioned area and have that expertise publicly recognized by licensure or professional registration in a profession. Do you anonymously ignore the question, perhaps knowing a dangerous or costly situation may result, or speak up and risk involvement in what could become a litigious or criminal negligence situation ?

[SunEagle]

I read all 15 pages. I'm still not sure he was BS'ing anyone, just confused and overwhelmed, and eventually I think started to get the answers. I still think there was a bit of hostility right off the bat to this guy and the other guy who also stepped in to help a bit. I don't see anything wrong with the guy asking for a BOM, basically, as us noobs don't know that we need ground clips, MC4 connectors, etc. at the start. Perhaps we need a sticky that lists the basics given the typical North American asphalt rooftop so noobs have a place to start, or be referred to if they don't find it on their own.

First off the problem with providing a detailed BOM is that not all the parts may be available or easy to get. That could lead to substitutions that will not necessarily work or could weaken the design. Also with different building codes for different areas of the US (earth quakes for CA or hurricanes for FL) the same BOM might not past the inspectors approval as a qualified installation.

Another reason for people here not to provide specific building instructions and detailed part lists is that if something goes wrong with the installation and someone gets hurt who is libel?

The best we can do is provide some guidance and suggestions for doing the research and talking to local installers or getting proposals to compare prices.

[ZoNiE]

I read all 15 pages. I'm still not sure he was BS'ing anyone, just confused and overwhelmed, and eventually I think started to get the answers. I still think there was a bit of hostility right off the bat to this guy and the other guy who also stepped in to help a bit. I don't see anything wrong with the guy asking for a BOM, basically, as us noobs don't know that we need ground clips, MC4 connectors, etc. at the start. Perhaps we need a sticky that lists the basics given the typical North American asphalt rooftop so noobs have a place to start, or be referred to if they don't find it on their own.

[Rdjntx]

There is a difference between being treated horribly (didn't happen) and being told straight up in no nonsense wording what the situation is, which happens quite a lot here. The op was told straight up what he should do and chose to stick around and argue the point, had you read more than the first page you would have seen that the op's story did not hold water in the first place which is probably why he left the thread.

one cannot wear ones feelings on their sleave when asking questions on a public forum, there are people who will answer the question asked and answer in a straight up manner, if you can't handle that and expect everything to be couched in a way so your widdle feelings are not hurt .. the internet is not for you.

and the answers given and the way the op was treated has ZERO to do with why there isn't an array on every rooftop. there is nothing "exposing" in any reply in this thread that shows the "reality" of that comment of yours.

What a depressing thread...

The OP and the 3rd Poster were treated horribly.

It really exposes the reality of the Solar Industry and why there isn't an array on every rooftop.