Solaredge HD inverters with EV charging

[Steeler.Fan]

I purchased a used SE7600H-US inverter. I plan to use it with a new solar array (>11 kw) and do EV charging. My all electric home (under construction) will be > 3300 sq ft with AC in a very sunny but warm location (with very expensive electricity rates), with heated swimming pool (10x58') and 2 EVs with > 50 kwh batteries. I am not sure what my usage will be, so I will start with an oversized array and the SE7600H and add more panels if needed
I have a few questions:
1. I read that I can also connect a EV charger kit to the SE3800H-US inverter. With 2 EV cars, would it be better to install both a SE7600H and SE3800H than one SE11400H, so that I can charge 2 EVs at once with solar boost? (The EVs that I am looking at can charge at 40 amps).

2. Do I need to buy the SE EV charger kits, which are rather expensive, or can I connect a cable with appropriate size wire and connector such as:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/J-Plug-J177....c100011.m1850

3. What is the SE part number for the EV charger and does anyone have an installation manual for the EV charger kit?

4. How much power, greater than load demand, do I need to generate from my arrays to enable the solar boost mode in these inverters?

5. If I go to a 2 inverter system, how are the house loads connected to them? I presume in series (one main panel) rather than parallel (2 separate panels).

[JSchnee21]

Hello Steeler.Fan,

Hopefully you've identified a reputable solar installer to design and install your PV system. I doubt they'll be very keen to used a used inverter and if they do, are unlikely to warranty it. While adding panels after the fact is certainly possible, it generally requires a repeat of most/all of the application, inspection processes. So most people decided it's not really cost effective. Given all of the loads you've indicated, it's unlikely your 11kW array will be big enough. My 12kW array doesn't fully offset a load anywhere near what you are suggesting. There are numerous software tools you can use to estimation the productivity of an array (in annual MWh) based on your location, roof orientation and angle, and system size. For example SolarEdge Site Designer which is free on their website. But, you should be in the 15-20 MWh per year ballpark if you have good sun, and your roof faces due South, and it's pitch is 25-35 degrees.

While the "HD" series of inverter software seems to have been improving as of late, as a relatively new product line, it seems to have had a number of issues over the past couple years. Even though the HD series in theory supports a higher DC to AV ratio than the older series, if you live in a sunny location, have little or no shade, and your roof is fairly well oriented / laid out for solar, this won't really help you. The HD series is still just as subject to clipping (in some cases more so) than the older series when a high DC to AC ratio is used. If you are planning to grow the array in the future -- or for a more accurate reflection of the size of the system you'd need -- you'd be closer to 2 x 7,600W or even 2 x 10,000W. HVAC, Pool Pumps, and especially EV can use a lot of electricity -- if you drive a lot.

Will your inverters be installed in your garage (or wherever your EV's are located)? If not, then they won't help you very much for charging. There's nothing magical about the SE combo inverter/L2 charger. Personally, I'd steer clear and just get separate EV chargers installed in or near my garage with dedicated 240V circuits (2x30 or 40amps). EV charging standards are changing pretty rapidly so I won't want to be tied into the technology in the SE offering. For example, Tesla uses their own standard, and the L1/L2 current capabilities keep changing.

If you have multiple inverters, they would be wired in parallel to your main panel. But depending on how this is done (e.g line side versus load side) there can be limitations depending on the size of your load center.

Once again, I strong suggest finding a reputable installer to plan this out. Based on the specs of your new home's HVAC, pool pump, how much you drive your EV's, the location, and how cool you like your home, you should be able to get a fairly good estimated usage. Or, just wait a year to install the solar so you know for sure.

-Jonathan

[jflorey2]

1. I read that I can also connect a EV charger kit to the SE3800H-US inverter. With 2 EV cars, would it be better to install both a SE7600H and SE3800H than one SE11400H, so that I can charge 2 EVs at once with solar boost?

Do whatever makes the most sense economically for solar, then install 2 40 amp EVSE's. They are about $500 ea.

[Steeler.Fan]

Thanks for the comments so far, especially JSchnee21, for a more detailed response.
We tried to maximize my S facing roof but my HOA insisted that the roof be more broken up and this roof design was a compromise with the design committee. I have attached my latest proposed layout but am reconsidering the location of my solar thermal panels. I will need to use some of the non S facing (bottom facing) roof pitches for panels no matter what.
My current thought is to put 1 solar thermal panel each on both the E and W pitches. The SHW controller that I will use is able to control 2 separate pumps. Splitting the SHW panels between the E & W faces will allow me to begin generating SHW earlier in the day and continue until later in the day and lessen the mid day SHW peak.
If I moved the SHW panels off the S pitch, I can probably fit 35 panels on the 2 S pitches (sized with Panasonic 330w HIT panel footprints) depending upon which panel I finally decide upon. Even with 1 SHW panel on the W face, I could probably still put 25 PV panels on the W pitch, as well. That could give me 60x.33=19.8Kw but 25/60 would be on the less efficient W facing panels. W facing panels are not so bad because if I decide to go with TOU (with 5-10p peak), they will give me production later in the day than S facing panels. The W pitch faces the ocean and many days we get a blinding reflection off the water when the sun is low. That will probably add some more generated power to the W panels but I won't know how much more until I actually have some located there and connected. (I know that even with the reflected light, the W facing panels won't beat the S facing panels.)
I thought that in phase one, I could start with the S face mostly occupied by PV panels (~30-35 panels, 9.6-11.5 Kw). If I started with 32 panels (10.56 Kw), I could start with one SE7600H, if I placed an 8 panel string on the W face and a 24 panel string on S face. (Do I recall correctly that the min/max SE string sizes are 8/25?) With 25% on W and 75% on S face, I would have less clipping using one SE7600H inverter. After seeing how much my W panels generate and what my loads amount to, phase two would add the desired amounts of extra PV panels and 2nd inverter. (My roof is standing seam metal to minimize penetrations and simplify adding racks and panels.) I think that I should submit a initial design with 60 panels (19.8 Kw). There would be less problems with installing less PV than initially planned than more.
My inverters will be in my garage where the EVs would be parked and charged. The 1st SE7600H-US would be installed in the middle so it could charge either car.
The quoted $500/40a EVSE above doesn't include installation costs and the need for more breakers in my panel. The integrated EV charging in the SE HD inverters avoids those problems and would be much cheaper especially if I could install an alternate 40a cord with J1772 plug.
Other thoughts and comments?

[Steeler.Fan]

If I eventually installed a total of 60x.33=19.8 Kw. Would it be best to have 26 W and 34 S panels with 2 SE7600H inverters each with a 13 W and 17 S string? I think that would minimize clipping.

[JSchnee21]

Hi Steeler.Fan,

It looks like your plans are starting to shape up. Yes, as long as you consider the min and max optimizer string lengths, balancing and placing a one Southern string and one Western string on each inverter will work and prevent clipping. Max DC connected load is 11,800W per 7600W inverter so given 13W and 17S (30*330W=9900W) you should be good from a warranty perspective.

I also have the Panasonic N330's. You might also look at the new LG Neon R 360's -- but these are physically slightly larger (and more expensive) -- so you may not fit as many per face.

Filing for the largest possible array with your PoCo and then installing less may be an option if your HOA, local code enforcement, and PoCo agree, You'll need to size all of your wiring, conduit, breakers, etc. for the maximal size, so all you really save on is the panels and inverters.

Your PoCo will likely want to keep your array to ~90-105% of expected use, so they may not permit a 19.8kW residential array. Additionally some may limit you to 10kW or so and may require a commercial application and/or liability insurance above that. Every Poco and local jurisdiction is different.

I'm not sure where you live or how much you plan to heat your sizable swimming pool, but you're likely to save more money from the SHW than from the PV if your other option would be natural gas. So, as you suggesting, you may want to prioritize some of that southern face for the SHW.

-Jonathan

[ButchDeal]

I thought that in phase one, I could start with the S face mostly occupied by PV panels (~30-35 panels, 9.6-11.5 Kw). If I started with 32 panels (10.56 Kw), I could start with one SE7600H, if I placed an 8 panel string on the W face and a 24 panel string on S face. (Do I recall correctly that the min/max SE string sizes are 8/25?)

Do you have an installer? Installers are really good at designing. They also know the rules and requirements.


So the answer to your question is NO. The minimum is 6 with some optimizers and 8 with others.
The maximum varies and is primarily based on wattage. with a max per string of 5700 watts or 6kw on the SE7600h.
There is also no reason to limit a string to a roof face so you can have two strings of 16 with one string having 8 on the west face and 8 on the south face.
https://www.solaredge.com/sites/defa...tasheet-na.pdf
https://www.solaredge.com/sites/defa...tasheet-na.pdf

After seeing how much my W panels generate and what my loads amount to, phase two would add the desired amounts of extra PV panels and 2nd inverter.

You should be able to easily model the production of the west as well as south arrays and get a very accurate prediction of production.

I don't know where this home is located but often a second build out or expansion can get quite tricky with paperwork and sometime punitive results to the homeowner in that the older array that might have been grandfathered into better rates gets bumped into current rate structure. This is on top of new permit, inspections, interconnect and construction minimum costs.

[ButchDeal]

I purchased a used SE7600H-US inverter. I plan to use it with a new solar array (>11 kw) and do EV charging. My all electric home (under construction) will be > 3300 sq ft with AC in a very sunny but warm location (with very expensive electricity rates), with heated swimming pool (10x58') and 2 EVs with > 50 kwh batteries. I am not sure what my usage will be, so I will start with an oversized array and the SE7600H and add more panels if needed
I have a few questions:

The SE7600H you have likely does NOT have the EV charger built in.

1. I read that I can also connect a EV charger kit to the SE3800H-US inverter. With 2 EV cars, would it be better to install both a SE7600H and SE3800H than one SE11400H, so that I can charge 2 EVs at once with solar boost? (The EVs that I am looking at can charge at 40 amps).

There is not an SE11400H yet and the SE11400A does not have a car charger built in
if you want two car chargers the sE7600H and SE3800h would be the best fit.

https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/single_phase_inverter_integrated_ev_charger_na.pdf

2. Do I need to buy the SE EV charger kits, which are rather expensive, or can I connect a cable with appropriate size wire and connector such as:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/J-Plug-J177....c100011.m1850

I would think so: https://www.solaredge.com/sites/defa...uration_na.pdf

3. What is the SE part number for the EV charger and does anyone have an installation manual for the EV charger kit?

It is a different inverter part number, it is not sold as an add on but a different inverter with it built in: SE7600H-US000NNV2

4. How much power, greater than load demand, do I need to generate from my arrays to enable the solar boost mode in these inverters?

1 watt of solar would boost. 2 watts would boost more, etc, up to max of 40a

5. If I go to a 2 inverter system, how are the house loads connected to them? I presume in series (one main panel) rather than parallel (2 separate panels).

with multiple inverters you need to combine them in an AC combiner then connect to the grid. Generally at this large of a size a line side tap is more common but a derated MSP could be used. They would combined in Parallel.

[ButchDeal]

If I eventually installed a total of 60x.33=19.8 Kw. Would it be best to have 26 W and 34 S panels with 2 SE7600H inverters each with a 13 W and 17 S string? I think that would minimize clipping.

having 9.9kw on a 7.6kw inverter is likely to result in clipping. mixing it South and West will definitely help reduce the clipping.
having the two inverters set up with one all south and the other all West would result in a lot more clipping.

[TAZ427]

So the used SE7600H that you have, I'd suspect isn't one with the HW insided needed for the EV boost, you could add an SE3800H as mentioned w/ the EV charger built in. That said, you should really run through the economics of it.

Are you on a flat rate, or Time of Use plan, do they have Time of Use for EV, what are those rates (and I'd assume it's in non-solar production times - i.e. something like 1am -7am) for me it's about 1/2 the normal rate in winter, and 1/3 of it in the summer time (and 1/4 of the summer peak rates.) I don't have an EV yet, but I was quickly able to determine that it would be much cheaper to not invest in extra panels (or invest in 1/2 as many extra as I'd need to produce the amount of electricity I'd use on EV charging) and charge off the grid at the low overnight rate. No way am I going to loose 2, 3 and 4x the value charging it directly from my solar panels, or when I could be charging my electric company those rates for producing excess, when I can get it that cheep overnight.

I wasn't aware of the SE7600H w/ charger built in when I was negotiating and having my system installed, I think my installer was, as he asked me if I plan on having an EV, and I told him not until my existing cars die. And doing the math going straight to an EV plan cost me something like $150/yr more (with different rate TOU) than no EV TOU plan. So, I wasn't interested in extra panels for it, but if he said he'd get me the SE7600H w/ Charger built in for $700 more (about the price differential I'm seeing.) I may have went for it. That said, there are plenty of them out there in the $500 range, and more coming out. So it's not like it's a big price saver, and I wouldn't be using it directly with solar production anyway.

So, I'd suggest going and finding out what kind of rate plans your PoCo provides, and if there's anything special with EVs such as over night charging rates before making any further decisions.

[TAZ427]

Thanks for the comments so far, especially JSchnee21, for a more detailed response.
We tried to maximize my S facing roof but my HOA insisted that the roof be more broken up and this roof design was a compromise with the design committee. I have attached my latest proposed layout but am reconsidering the location of my solar thermal panels. I will need to use some of the non S facing (bottom facing) roof pitches for panels no matter what.
My current thought is to put 1 solar thermal panel each on both the E and W pitches. The SHW controller that I will use is able to control 2 separate pumps. Splitting the SHW panels between the E & W faces will allow me to begin generating SHW earlier in the day and continue until later in the day and lessen the mid day SHW peak.
If I moved the SHW panels off the S pitch, I can probably fit 35 panels on the 2 S pitches (sized with Panasonic 330w HIT panel footprints) depending upon which panel I finally decide upon. Even with 1 SHW panel on the W face, I could probably still put 25 PV panels on the W pitch, as well. That could give me 60x.33=19.8Kw but 25/60 would be on the less efficient W facing panels. W facing panels are not so bad because if I decide to go with TOU (with 5-10p peak), they will give me production later in the day than S facing panels. The W pitch faces the ocean and many days we get a blinding reflection off the water when the sun is low. That will probably add some more generated power to the W panels but I won't know how much more until I actually have some located there and connected. (I know that even with the reflected light, the W facing panels won't beat the S facing panels.)
I thought that in phase one, I could start with the S face mostly occupied by PV panels (~30-35 panels, 9.6-11.5 Kw). If I started with 32 panels (10.56 Kw), I could start with one SE7600H, if I placed an 8 panel string on the W face and a 24 panel string on S face. (Do I recall correctly that the min/max SE string sizes are 8/25?) With 25% on W and 75% on S face, I would have less clipping using one SE7600H inverter. After seeing how much my W panels generate and what my loads amount to, phase two would add the desired amounts of extra PV panels and 2nd inverter. (My roof is standing seam metal to minimize penetrations and simplify adding racks and panels.) I think that I should submit a initial design with 60 panels (19.8 Kw). There would be less problems with installing less PV than initially planned than more.
My inverters will be in my garage where the EVs would be parked and charged. The 1st SE7600H-US would be installed in the middle so it could charge either car.
The quoted $500/40a EVSE above doesn't include installation costs and the need for more breakers in my panel. The integrated EV charging in the SE HD inverters avoids those problems and would be much cheaper especially if I could install an alternate 40a cord with J1772 plug.
Other thoughts and comments?

Ok, I just spent the time to read through this one. If West Facing pitch is facing Ocean, I'm guessing you're on the West Coast... If you're in California, every one of the big PoCo's that I've looked at so far, require you to go on TOU plan, that's not an option (I'm on PG&E Myself) so you may want to double/tripple check on whether or not your PoCo will not be forcing you to go to TOU plan.

Also, you really need to use PVWatts and power consumption data for the previous year, which sounds like you may not have, maybe you can get it from previous owner. But it sounds like you could actually be going overkill on the generation to be honest. Have you used PVWatts to do some analysis at a minimum? I'm a similar sized house with a pool and I'm using a 8kW system, 24panels (plus a 10x20' solar pool heater panel). Looks like you've got 42 panels plus Solar Pool heater (what size is that Solar Heater BTW?, looks like it may be 8x10 - which if you're pool is that large, I'd think that would be way too small.) But, if you're heating with electric, that could mean a lot more electricity consumption in the winter (never looked into how much electricity vs gas heating would cost here.)

[Steeler.Fan]

I appreciate all of the helpful comments. Some asked and others implied questions, which I will attempt to answer below.
I am very familiar with PVWatts.
The SHW panels are for my DHW not the pool. My pool will be heated with heat pump. The annual average high temp is 85F and low 70F with a lot of sunshine but it can be windy. When I am there 6 mo/yr, I will use pool covers but when it is used as a vacation home there will be less cover use. When there are just 2 of us there, our EV consumption, DHW, pool heating and AC use will be much less than when there are up to 8 guests in the vacation home mode. The house is currently being built so there is no past year's power bill to review.

The flat electrical rate here for June 2018 is $0.33/kwh. I expect rates to climb further with geothermal plant shutdown (location hint). TOU is optional with June 2018 rates: On Peak 5-10 pm $0.545/kwh; Off Peak 10 pm-9 am $0.395 & Mid Day 9 am-5 pm $0.149/kwh. One option is to just install enough solar for my wife and I and use load shifting and batteries to store the cheapest electricity to make up difference when renters are there. (Powerwall 2.0 reserved > 1 yr ago.) I know that I can generate electricity cheaper than $0.149/kwh with solar but the problem is how to handle excess power when just 2 of us there.

One option for handling excess is the Customer Grid-Supply Plus option, where I can export 24/7 at $0.1055/kwh but subject to utility shutting off exports periodically if needed. The Governor was just sent a bill requiring the utility to offer microgrids a fair export price but he hasn't signed it yet. Many define a house with solar array and battery as a personal microgrid. This could make exporting surplus more attractive but the utility is resisting. While our utility had the highest percentage of renewable energy supply in the country (before geothermal plant shutdown), they could easily be 100% renewable right now with our abundant wind and sun resources if they wanted to be.

[Steeler.Fan]

SE EV charging kit located:
Mfr. Part #: SE-EV-KIT-25J40-1
http://www.civicsolar.com/product/so...ev-kit-25j40-1
$477.78
40a/15' cord and J1772 connector on eBay
$145

[TAZ427]

I appreciate all of the helpful comments. Some asked and others implied questions, which I will attempt to answer below.
I texted my SE region rep and he replied that an EV Charger upgrade kit for SE7600H-US has been discussed at SE. He didn't know if it was available yet but, if not, it should be in the very near future.
BTW, I am very familiar with PVWatts.
The SHW panels are for my DHW not the pool. My pool will be heated with heat pump. The annual average high temp is 85F and low 70F with a lot of sunshine but it can be windy. When I am there 6 mo/yr, I will use pool covers but when it is used as a vacation home there will be less cover use. When there are just 2 of us there, our EV consumption, DHW, pool heating and AC use will be much less than when there are up to 8 guests in the vacation home mode. The house is currently being built so there is no past year's power bill to review.

The flat electrical rate here for June 2018 is $0.33/kwh. I expect rates to climb further with geothermal plant shutdown (location hint). TOU is optional with June 2018 rates: On Peak 5-10 pm $0.545/kwh; Off Peak 10 pm-9 am $0.395 & Mid Day 9 am-5 pm $0.149/kwh. One option is to just install enough solar for my wife and I and use load shifting and batteries to store the cheapest electricity to make up difference when renters are there. (Powerwall 2.0 reserved > 1 yr ago.) I know that I can generate electricity cheaper than $0.149/kwh with solar but the problem is how to handle excess power when just 2 of us there.

One option for handling excess is the Customer Grid-Supply Plus option, where I can export 24/7 at $0.1055/kwh but subject to utility shutting off exports periodically if needed. The Governor was just sent a bill requiring the utility to offer microgrids a fair export price but he hasn't signed it yet. Many define a house with solar array and battery as a personal microgrid. This could make exporting surplus more attractive but the utility is resisting. While our utility had the highest percentage of renewable energy supply in the country (before geothermal plant shutdown), they could easily be 100% renewable right now with our abundant wind and sun resources if they wanted to be.

Ok, now, I think I have a much better idea of where you're at, which does make a whole lot of difference. If you use AC there a lot instead of Natural Air Flow, then that's a lot of electricity, thank goodness that you'll be getting some really good sun and EV charging in the day is good at those 'mid day' rates. Heck, at those rates, I'd be looking to see how much more you could get out of the more westerly facing panels and possibly loading up on those. Elon Musk needs to ship some batteries out that way with the Geothermal plant going down.

[TAZ427]

SE EV charging kit located:
Mfr. Part #: SE-EV-KIT-25J40-1
http://www.civicsolar.com/product/so...ev-kit-25j40-1
$477.78
40a/15' cord and J1772 connector on eBay
$145

Key thing to note is "Note: This is an add-on product for the SolarEdge EV Compatible HD Wave inverter."

I read that to NOTE be compatible with the regular SE7600HD (i.e. the SE7600H-US000NNU2) and only compatible with the EV SE7600HD (i.e. SE7600H-US000NNV2) which is $376 more expensive, then add on the cable kit for $478 for a total of $854 more total.

I have serious doubts that it's going to work with your used SE7600H which is almost guaranteed to be the US000NNU2 variant. There's no mechanism inside it to control the AC connection, only a direct AC hookup in that lower box, and this would be needed to be able to control it (plus communication), which is part of what this is intended to do, so you can program when you want it to charge. There would have to be some sort of upgrade module to make this capable of doing this.