Building Reserve and Using KWH

[DanS26]

I see a claim of COP up to 5, impressive. Is the room supplying source air? Bruce Roe

Yes, that is why I only run it during warm weather. Nyle has discontinued this model will replace with the C-8 series. Not sure when.

I self installed the unit April, 2012. About 2 years ago a relay failed but that was the only maintenance I have performed on the unit in eight years. Very pleased with its output and operation. I monitor the operation of the unit with the Sunnovations Ohm Monitoring system....

http://ohm.sunnovations.com/

The Ohm system is really to monitor solar water heating but I hacked it monitor the Nyle. I get great information about my Nyle performance....top of tank temps, input and output temps, graphs of enthalpy, etc.

Best part about the whole installation is the cost. I purchased the unit for $900, my REMC gave me $300 for installing a heat pump, and the IRS gave me another $300 for installing efficient energy equipment. My out of pocket was only $300.

[bcroe]

I use a Nyle system. I only run it during late spring, summer and early fall. It is also on a timer so that it only operates during daylight hours. In the warm months it will use ~50 to 60 kWh per month and generate most of our hot water requirements.

Very efficient and quiet. Since it is also rated as a one ton AC I have it connected to the cold return duct work but as you see I also installed a louver to redirect the cold air during late spring and early fall when the house is too cool for additional AC.

I see a claim of COP up to 5, impressive. Is the room supplying source air? Bruce Roe

[DanS26]

I use a Nyle system. I only run it during late spring, summer and early fall. It is also on a timer so that it only operates during daylight hours. In the warm months it will use ~50 to 60 kWh per month and generate most of our hot water requirements.

Very efficient and quiet. Since it is also rated as a one ton AC I have it connected to the cold return duct work but as you see I also installed a louver to redirect the cold air during late spring and early fall when the house is too cool for additional AC.

CIMG0870.JPGCIMG0871.JPG

[bcroe]

Finally got a prediction of 10 days with a lot of sun. Not cloudless, but this array can
deliver very substantial energy even under lighter clouds. Meter spinning today.

The propane for drying clothes, Hot Water, and leaks amounts to 271 gallons a year.
Have fixed more than 1 leak, hope that is now zero. The (now backup) propane furnace
has not run in a while. Multiplying 271 g/y by 27 KWH per gallon, and times 0.8 burner
efficiency, comes to 5850 KWH per year, my guess mostly for the HW. That in turn can
be broken into actual use and standby losses. That is more than my KWH surplus, so
efficiency improvement would be good.

The HW source is reading 105F, insulation about 82F, basement air around 70F. The
door foam may be in 60F air, other side 0F, still it does not chill the finger. No Armaflex
was used in 2004, at $1 per foot would consider that in the future. My duct tape assured
the cheap insulation would at least stay in place and sealed longer, not adding any
thermal properties.

Heat Pump water heaters probably ARE NOT the inverter driven variable speed compressor,
COP approaching 4, that my house HPs are. So I am avoiding them for now.

The temp in the attic peak needs to be monitored over days and season, to determine
just how much time it is far above the 55F incoming water. If that time is substantial,
it could be used, and be bypassed and drained for the remaining time.

For the moment, an electric water heater would at least let me consume my annual
KWH surplus and save propane, even if not a 100% changeover. A non vented
electric clothes drier would be the other item, except they are pretty small.

For the future, I need to figure out how to make the furnace air ducting easily removable,
then redesign the revealed hot water pipes for minimum length and max insulation. Not
likely this year though. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

I try to improve a weaker link every year, and there is opportunity in the hot water sys.
The PO was apparently an even worse plumber than me, pretty bad. I found one HW
copper pipe that actually wrapped around and crossed itself, and the leaks I have repaired.....

Part of the problem is a narrow ranch with a 37 deg bend in the middle, and a stairway at
that point make it difficult for utilities to pass there. So all the pipes have the furnace air
ducting passing underneath, making access extremely difficult. I may need to make the
ducts removable or just move the furnace to solve the problem, has not been used in a
while.

With only a couple people and limited laundry, I do not think the quantity of hot water used
can be reduced. Dishwasher runs 2 or 3 times a week. What I do think could improve is
pipe insulation. When I started out with a lot of resistance heat, the water just helped out
for many months, but now with Heat Pumps it is looking inefficient. The big box snap on
insulation is tightly wrapped to keep it in place, unlike that I removed. But it is quite warm
to the touch. I noted the 1 inch foam I attached to garage doors is never cold to the touch
despite outside cold. The thought is get the pipe straightened out, then mill a deep slot in
inches of that foam to push over the pipe. Then a flat foam piece would be friction fitted
into the grove. My recirculating return line would be strapped directly to the main pipe and
included in the foam groove. This is about as far as the thought has gotten to date.
Bruce Roe

Sounds (Reads) like you've got a cross between a rat's next and a Rube Goldberg system for some of your piping.

On the temps of insulation surfaces: The pipe insulation outside surface is hotter/warmer relative to the interior side of the garage door insulation most likely because:
1.) The DHW temp. is most likely a fair amount warmer than the conditioned space the pipe is running through compared to the temp. diff. between the garage interior and the outside environment.
2.) Unless it's the black, closed cell foam ("Armaflex" type stuff), the stuff on your pipes is probably the cheap "Frost King" stuff which is mostly crap. Additionally, it's probably ~ 1/2" thickness or less, or ~ 1/2 as thick as the 1" garage door insulation thickness. BTW, warping compressible insulation too tightly will reduce its thickness and so decrease its effectiveness. Just close the seams as best as possible but don't "snug up " compressible insulation. FWIW, I use 1" Armaflex on all the hot water runs and wrap it completely with aluminum tape (note: NOT duct tape).

My tank and piping are pretty well buttoned up - the piping as described above and an additional 6" fiberglass around the tank w/2" rigid polyurethane foam top and bottom. My total annual DHW load is ~ 2675 kWh/yr. (~ 9.1 MM BTU /yr.), with ~ 90-95 % of that load met with ~ 5.5 m^2 of solar thermal in any given year. Of the 2,675 kWh/yr. total DHW load, the tank standby losses and piping losses are ~ 1,250 - 1,300 kWh/yr. All that comes down to if your usage and piping lengths are somewhat like mine (which sounds likely), your tank standby losses and piping losses are probably as great or greater than your actual DHW loads.

[bcroe]

Any measures considered that would lower the DHW usage or lower
line or standby losses ? You won't heat what you don't use.

I try to improve a weaker link every year, and there is opportunity in the hot water sys.
The PO was apparently an even worse plumber than me, pretty bad. I found one HW
copper pipe that actually wrapped around and crossed itself, and the leaks I have repaired.....

Part of the problem is a narrow ranch with a 37 deg bend in the middle, and a stairway at
that point make it difficult for utilities to pass there. So all the pipes have the furnace air
ducting passing underneath, making access extremely difficult. I may need to make the
ducts removable or just move the furnace to solve the problem, has not been used in a
while.

With only a couple people and limited laundry, I do not think the quantity of hot water used
can be reduced. Dishwasher runs 2 or 3 times a week. What I do think could improve is
pipe insulation. When I started out with a lot of resistance heat, the water just helped out
for many months, but now with Heat Pumps it is looking inefficient. The big box snap on
insulation is tightly wrapped to keep it in place, unlike that I removed. But it is quite warm
to the touch. I noted the 1 inch foam I attached to garage doors is never cold to the touch
despite outside cold. The thought is get the pipe straightened out, then mill a deep slot in
inches of that foam to push over the pipe. Then a flat foam piece would be friction fitted
into the grove. My recirculating return line would be strapped directly to the main pipe and
included in the foam groove. This is about as far as the thought has gotten to date.
Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

My latest PoCo bill shows a winter reserve built up to 13,000 KWH, running with my best past
years. I was sort of hoping for a week of good sun to make it the highest ever, but that seems
unlikely. Rather optimistic, since the heat pump in the car shop is now on line. I collect energy
all year, but the reserve usually usually peaks about 1 Nov, with limited sun and increasing
heating load. System efficiency is as good as ever, now with my peak AC losses over the long
run from the inverters to the PoCo meter at around 1%, and with even better efficiency under clouds.

With annual generation running near 20% in excess of consumption here, the thought is of adding
an electric water heater. The 3rd water heater I have had in 16 years uses propane I paid $1.09
a gallon for this summer, avoiding any winter purchases at up to a manipulated $5 a gallon. The
propane heater is vented, and I note cold air back feeding through it into the house winters when
not running.

To begin the trial, cold water might come into the electric heater, then feed the input of the propane
heater. If I got hit with a supper cold winter eating my KWH reserve, the electric water could be
shut down for a while. Perhaps if this proves to be a very rare situation, the propane water heater
will disappear.

I would like to limit the too frequent heater replacement, maybe a glass tank like marathon 40
gallon lifetime electric water heater would be the answer? I read of heat pump water heaters, but
in winter I would just have to replace the heat inside the house anyway, is that really an advantage?
There is always the thought of an incoming pipe running just under the quite hot roof peak in my attic,
but that requires either seasonal management, or the big complications of a system with antifreeze.

Bruce Roe

Any measures considered that would lower the DHW usage or lower line or standby losses ? You won't heat what you don't use.

[azdave]

Seems like a logical use of excess kWh to pre-heat the water to the propane fired WH. I've been able to eek more years out of my water heater tanks by changing the sacrificial anode every 2 years regardless of whether I think they are due or not. Too many variables to know if that is really why mine last longer than the neighbors but some of them get leaks at 5-6 years and I've gone over 10 years so far.

Building kWh Reserve?
This was (and still is) a brutal summer here in Phoenix but we've made it though the worst of it without having any billable energy. We had less than 45kWh in reserve (1 day supply in the summer) as we ended August and only built up the reserve a measly 13kWh more after September. We've had 50 days over 110F and will very likely beat the all time record of 143 days above 100. Might not see a day below 100 here until Oct 11. Our mini-split in the master bedroom saved us for sure from purchasing energy this summer.

[bcroe]

My latest PoCo bill shows a winter reserve built up to 13,000 KWH, running with my best past
years. I was sort of hoping for a week of good sun to make it the highest ever, but that seems
unlikely. Rather optimistic, since the heat pump in the car shop is now on line. I collect energy
all year, but the reserve usually usually peaks about 1 Nov, with limited sun and increasing
heating load. System efficiency is as good as ever, now with my peak AC losses over the long
run from the inverters to the PoCo meter at around 1%, and with even better efficiency under clouds.

With annual generation running near 20% in excess of consumption here, the thought is of adding
an electric water heater. The 3rd water heater I have had in 16 years uses propane I paid $1.09
a gallon for this summer, avoiding any winter purchases at up to a manipulated $5 a gallon. The
propane heater is vented, and I note cold air back feeding through it into the house winters when
not running.

To begin the trial, cold water might come into the electric heater, then feed the input of the propane
heater. If I got hit with a supper cold winter eating my KWH reserve, the electric water could be
shut down for a while. Perhaps if this proves to be a very rare situation, the propane water heater
will disappear.

I would like to limit the too frequent heater replacement, maybe a glass tank like marathon 40
gallon lifetime electric water heater would be the answer? I read of heat pump water heaters, but
in winter I would just have to replace the heat inside the house anyway, is that really an advantage?
There is always the thought of an incoming pipe running just under the quite hot roof peak in my attic,
but that requires either seasonal management, or the big complications of a system with antifreeze.

Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

Seems since the BIG OUTAGE, I no longer get email alerts to strings I thought I
was subscribed too.



.....Bruce Roe

I have noticed the lack of email alerts also and have passed that onto Solar Pete.

[bcroe]

Rodents eating car wiring is not a small problem. Check this out...........

Seems since the BIG OUTAGE, I no longer get email alerts to strings I thought I
was subscribed too.

Eating insulation seems to be a lot more interesting than insulation resistance. Can
the wiring easily be made a lot less tasty ?

Yea that link illustrates the latest ploys to force you to replace your car on a regular
basis. The latest Integrated Circuits use such fine geometry that cosmic rays may
knock out enough transistors after a while to kill them, probably that is why the first
Rover used a 70s 8085. All the intelligent solar equipment is probably in the same
boat, and there is no repairing a custom, short run, and unavailable IC.

Plastic parts went into car drive train, all these have been replaced on my 77. I do not
own a car containing a digital computer. Her new one is an electronic marvel, I am
overhauling the 2001 so it can come back to replace the 2020 when the electronics
become unmanageable. Bruce Roe

[DanS26]

I have heard some electrical wire insulation is Soy base. It was a problem for my nephews car.

Rodents eating car wiring is not a small problem. Check this out...........

http://www.synlube.com/IncredibleEdibleCar1.htm

[Ampster]

.......... I still don't understand why a mouse would have the desire to gnaw on an electrical wire.
.........

I have heard some electrical wire insulation is Soy base. It was a problem for my nephews car.

[badwithusernames]

regarding animals chewing wires, I have been told that there are certain brands of wire that come covered with what is essentially rat poison. I've seen a few fires from chewed wires and the idea is sound. A quick search yields little info, but I did fond this. Apparently some USE-2 wire is or has been available with it

https://solareducational.blogspot.com/2011/09/use-2-and-thhn-wire-insulation-types.html

[SunEagle]

I don't know how much nutrition they get out of that stuff but they persist. I found a dead mouse in my old service panel.

I have had a bad experience with a rat gnawing through Schedule 40 pvc sink drain pipe just to get some moisture but I still don't understand why a mouse would have the desire to gnaw on an electrical wire.

Maybe the electrical wire company should infuse some bad tasting fluid into the insulation. That may stop an animal from chewing on one.